I'm sorry, I misunderstand you. I thought you were saying it would be necessary anyway. That is, since Christ's death showed that Satan was wrong for the holy angels and unfallen worlds, even if man did not Christ to die, there would still be this need for the holy angels and unfallen worlds. Part of the reason I misread you is I have a friend who makes this argument.

Anway, I agree with you. I think God could have solved it some other way.



No, they weren't. There are several ways to see this. I'll name three.

1.From DA 764, we see that had God allowed Satan and his followers to reap the result of their sin, which is death, this would have been misunderstood and allowed for a seed of doubt to come about. It took the cross for them to understand that the wicked die not because God kills them but because of their own choice.

2.This quote says:



The angels were not expecting what happened to happen.

3.Not until the death of Christ did the angels understand Satan's character.

There were familiar with the Plan of Salvation in the sense it had been explained to them, but they didn't understand the revelations which came from this plan actually being implemented.



You're misunderstanding "justice" here. Here's a nice article discussing it: http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/0499/049910.htm.

This discusses how justice, in Scripture, is restorative, not retributive. Christ's whole message was about this. Not retribution (strike back the person who strikes you) but restoration (turn the other cheek).



Sinners suffer because of sin, not because of arbitrary actions on God's part. The sin itself causes their suffering and death. Sin is not innocuous!



It was the result of a misunderstanding on their part. They were "amazed" by the Plan of Salvation.



The argument of requirement has not been made. The argument of sufficiency has been made. That is, it has been asserted that without the cross the angels would be no more secure than they were before Satan began his rebellion. "The cross made the angels secure," not "the cross was required to make the angels secure." The latter might or might not be true; we haven't been told. I agree with you that in believing that God could have used another way.

At any rate, your argument is unsound anyway because the fact that God could have solved the problem in some other way does not mean that there was no problem, which is what your argument is asserting.



This doesn't fit with what we're told. I've already cited three points above which bear this out, so I won't repeat the argument. However, I'll point out that "being cool" with God's destroying evil angels is exhibiting the very misunderstanding the cross was designed to correct.

And my point is the angels were not "incorrect" in thinking God could justifiably punish and destroy sinners just before the first advent of Jesus.


It brings to light both aspects of the GC.


He veiled His presence.


I disagree. Yes, Jews and Romans were responsible for nailing Jesus to the cross, but they didn't kill Him.

John
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


"Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan." (5BC 1132)


I take it you agree with me, then, that being more secure against evil on account of the cross does not in the least mean they were not secure against evil before Lucifer rebelled.


The majority did not rebel, therefore, they were secure enough against evil to not rebel.


I disagree.


Again, what you call "lack of security" resulted in the majority of the angels not rebelling.


Considering what she wrote elsewhere it is obvious to me that the majority of the angels were secure enough against evil to not rebel. The fact a minority of angels rebelled is mysterious and unexplainable. Why? Because they were so secure against evil.

True, the angels weren't ready for God to punish and destroy the fallen angels the instant they were cast down to earth, but they were ready soon thereafter, even before A&E ate the forbidden fruit. The quotes you posted about it do not disagree with this observation.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. This is from DA 764:



The context here is the cross. God could "leave" Satan and his followers to reap the final result of their sin, which would have been they would have perished (not that God would kill them!) but this would have remained in their minds as evil seed (because before the cross it would have appeared that God had killed them!)

MM, the logic here is very simple. Satan was presenting God as being severe and arbitrary. He argued that God will kill you if you don't do exactly what He says. In true, it is sin which kills, not God. But if the angels had no frame of reference by which to correctly interpret death, it would have appeared to them, if God had left Satan to perish as a result of sin, that God was doing the very thing that Satan was accusing Him of.

Therefore it was necessary for the truth to be seen, which the cross demonstrated, which is that sin results in death. This is why these paragraphs, quoted above, are in the chapter which is dealing with Christ's death! It is the cross which allows us to properly understand the destruction of the wicked.

Where in the Bible or the SOP does Satan say, "God will kill you if you don't do exactly what He says"? And, how does this differ from what God said in Eden: "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:17)

Also, how does this fit in with what Satan told Eve: "Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:4, 5) Seems to me Satan said the opposite of what you claim.

And, regarding the holy angels, they were cool with God punishing and destroying Satan and his sympathizers the moment Jesus explained the plan of salvation. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Please address post #103829 above on this thread. Thank you.

They were wrong in thinking that God would do such a thing. The error was in relation to God's character, not in relation to what God could or could not justifiably do.



"Lo, to their wondering vision was unveiled the plan of salvation." That's just one.



Acts 2 says





You're citing the wrong passage! Since you are asserting she did not say "not secure against evil," you need to cite the passage *I* was citing, because you were responding to what *I* said.



This is missing the point. The issue is not whether the angels were secure enough or not secure enough to not rebel. She says that without the cross, the angels were no more secure than they were when Satan rebelled.

Here's her statement:



The last sentence should make the point clear. Please notice it doesn't say "more security," but simply "security."

Here's an SOP statement:





It differs in the way set out in DA 764:



The wicked are not killed by an arbitrary action on God's part, but as a result of their own choice.



They reap the full result of their sin; they suffer the "inevitable result of sin."



Satan deceived man by misrepresenting His character. This is what Satan was doing here, by insinuating that God didn't have the best interests of His creatures at heart. God warned man that if they sinned they would die. Satan argued that sin was innocuous, which many believe to be the case. Because sin is viewed as innocuous, it is deemed necessary that God kill sinners (since sin can't finish them off, being innocuous).



??? Where do you get this idea from?? I'm sure you can find passages where the angels were willing or expecting God to do away with man, but these passages say nothing about their being inspired to do so by the Plan of Salvation! Indeed, we see the exact opposite in the following:







Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [/quote]



Also, how does this fit in with what Satan told Eve: "Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:4, 5) Seems to me Satan said the opposite of what you claim.

And, regarding the holy angels, they were cool with God punishing and destroying Satan and his sympathizers the moment Jesus explained the plan of salvation. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Actually, this passage states it even more harshly, eh! Of course there is a degree of truth to what Satan says, namely, that God is strict about requiring obedience and punishing disobedience. Listen:

"The principles of justice required a faithful narration of facts for the benefit of all who should ever read the Sacred Record. Here we discern the evidences of divine wisdom. We are required to obey the law of God, and are not only instructed as to the penalty of disobedience, but we have narrated for our benefit and warning the history of Adam and Eve in Paradise, and the sad results of their disobedience of God's commands. The account is full and explicit. The law given to man in Eden is recorded, together with the penalty accruing in case of its disobedience. Then follows the story of the temptation and fall, and the punishment inflicted upon our erring parents. Their example is given us as a warning against disobedience, that we may be sure that the wages of sin is death, that God's retributive justice never fails, and that He exacts from His creatures a strict regard for His commandments. When the law was proclaimed at Sinai, how definite was the penalty annexed, how sure was punishment to follow the transgression of that law, and how plain are the cases recorded in evidence of that fact! {4T 11.3}

"God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

Nevertheless, don’t you find it odd that in the end Satan will personate Christ? Why would he work so hard to make us fear and hate God and then turn around and personate Him? Seems counterproductive. Could it be that since the cross Satan has been laboring to paint an opposite picture of God, to make people think God is sweet and soft on sin? Listen:

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven, and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. {DA 762.4}

Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. . . Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5}

That the law which was spoken by God's own voice is faulty, that some specification has been set aside, is the claim which Satan now puts forward. It is the last great deception that he will bring upon the world. He needs not to assail the whole law; if he can lead men to disregard one precept, his purpose is gained. {DA 763.1}


The “destruction” and “eradication” of sin and sinners is the inevitable result of sinning. God doesn’t leave it up to sin to punish and destroy sinners. Even you agree it is the unveiled glory of God that causes sinners to suffer and die. He takes matters into His own hands. He will blot sinners out of existence. She states the matter more clearly in the following passages:

Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question. {GC 498.3}

By the facts unfolded in the progress of the great controversy, God will demonstrate the principles of His rules of government, which have been falsified by Satan and by all whom he has deceived. His justice will finally be acknowledged by the whole world, though the acknowledgment will be made too late to save the rebellious. God carries with Him the sympathy and approval of the whole universe as step by step His great plan advances to its complete fulfillment. He will carry it with Him in the final eradication of rebellion. It will be seen that all who have forsaken the divine precepts have placed themselves on the side of Satan, in warfare against Christ. When the prince of this world shall be judged, and all who have united with him shall share his fate, the whole universe as witnesses to the sentence will declare, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." Revelation 15:3. {PP 79.1}


But Satan told Eve that she would not die. He didn’t say, “God will kill you if you sin.” I agree Satan misrepresented God, but he didn’t do it by saying God will kill you. He said the opposite, “Ye shall not surely die.” Turns out he was right. They didn’t die. And, if God hadn’t barred access to the tree of life, they would have eaten and lived forever. See Gen 3:22.

Does this mean sin is innocuous? No, of course not. Sinning is a hideous and terrible thing. The fact it doesn’t kill sinners doesn’t make it less repugnant and repulsive. And, the fact God will destroy and eradicate sinners with their sins in the lake of fire doesn’t make Him cruel or tyrannical.

The only reason God did not immediately blot the evil angels out of existence is because the rest of the universe was unprepared for it. And, the only reason God did not immediately execute A&E is because there was hope the human race would respond to the love of God be saved.


Yes, the angels were amazed God did not destroy the sinners just before Jesus’ incarnation. Nor are they amazed when God forgives penitent sinners. They were not amazed that Jesus became the incarnate Son of God to ransom and redeem penitent sinners. They were well aware of the plan of salvation. The point is they were cool with God destroying unpardonable sinners long before Jesus died on the cross in 31AD.

Again, Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, therefore, the angels have benefited from the efficacy of His death since the moment He explained the plan of salvation to them. From then on they have been cool with the idea of God blotting evil angels out of existence. In fact, they would have been cool with it if A&E had not sinned. These 6,000 years of sin and suffering are not necessary for the angels to be cool with God destroying and eradicating sinners.

Please address post #103829 above on this thread. Thank you.