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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: D R]
#103510
10/10/08 02:00 AM
10/10/08 02:00 AM
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Charter Member SDA Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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Absolutely disgusted that in our Churches that 1)Lay people will bear false witttness and then deny it. and 2) that leadership will bear false wittness and then deny it. Oh Lord please help me to not be a stumbling block and also be a bearer of false witness.
Is this just me?? Or do you also see theenemy strongly working in the Churches today? I beleive that God is mighty and will not lose, but why does He allow the enemy even in His sanctuary?? Esspecially in the sanctuary!
Last edited by BeachBubbaDan (BBD); 10/10/08 02:01 AM.
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: D R]
#103513
10/10/08 11:29 AM
10/10/08 11:29 AM
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Didn't Paul warn us in his writings about the church being infiltrated with false doctrine, which is equivalent to bearing false witness and lying?
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: Daryl]
#103606
10/14/08 02:41 PM
10/14/08 02:41 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Dan, buddy, you are not alone in your feelings. Ellen dealt with the same kinds of things throughout her ministry. Check it out:
Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. Jesus said: "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. . . . So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and sin the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." {TM 45.1}
In the parable of the wheat and the tares, we see the reason why the tares were not to be plucked up; it was lest the wheat be rooted up with the tares. Human opinion and judgment would make grave mistakes. But rather than have a mistake made, and one single blade of wheat rooted up, the Master says, "Let both grow together until the harvest;" then the angels will gather out the tares, which will be appointed to destruction. Although in our churches, that claim to believe advanced truth, there are those who are faulty and erring, as tares among the wheat, God is long-suffering and patient. He reproves and warns the erring, but He does not destroy those who are long in learning the lesson He would teach them; He does not uproot the tares from the wheat. Tares and wheat are to grow together till the harvest; when the wheat comes to its full growth and development, and because of its character when ripened, it will be fully distinguished from the tares. {TM 45.2}
The church of Christ on earth will be imperfect, but God does not destroy His church because of its imperfection. There have been and will be those who are filled with zeal not according to knowledge, who would purify the church, and uproot the tares from the midst of the wheat. But Christ has given special light as to how to deal with those who are erring, and with those who are unconverted in the church. There is to be no spasmodic, zealous, hasty action taken by church members in cutting off those they may think defective in character. Tares will appear among the wheat; but it would do more harm to weed out the tares, unless in God's appointed way, than to leave them alone. While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares. There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God. {TM 46.1}
Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard. The world is a workshop in which, through the cooperation of human and divine agencies, Jesus is making experiments by His grace and divine mercy upon human hearts. Angels are amazed as they behold the transformation of character brought about in those who yield themselves to God, and they express their joy in songs of rapturous praise to God and to the Lamb. They see those who are by nature the children of wrath, converted and becoming laborers together with Christ in drawing souls to God. They see those who were in darkness becoming lights to shine amid the moral night of this wicked and perverse generation. They see them becoming prepared by a Christlike experience to suffer with their Lord, and afterward to be partakers with Him in His glory in heaven above. {TM 49.1}
God has a church on earth who are lifting up the downtrodden law, and presenting to the world the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. The church is the depositary of the wealth of the riches of the grace of Christ, and through the church eventually will be made manifest the final and full display of the love of God to the world that is to be lightened with its glory. The prayer of Christ that His church may be one as He was one with His Father will finally be answered. The rich dowry of the Holy Spirit will be given, and through its constant supply to the people of God they will become witnesses in the world of the power of God unto salvation. {TM 50.1}
There is but one church in the world who are at the present time standing in the breach, and making up the hedge, building up the old waste places; and for any man to call the attention of the world and other churches to this church, denouncing her as Babylon, is to do a work in harmony with him who is the accuser of the brethren. Is it possible that men will arise from among us, who speak perverse things, and give voice to the very sentiments that Satan would have disseminated in the world in regard to those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus? Is there not work enough to satisfy your zeal in presenting the truth to those who are in the darkness of error? As those who have been made stewards of means and ability, you have been misapplying your Lord's goods in disseminating error. The whole world is filled with hatred of those who proclaim the binding claims of the law of God, and the church who are loyal to Jehovah must engage in no ordinary conflict. "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Those who have any realization of what this warfare means will not turn their weapons against the church militant, but with all their powers will wrestle with the people of God against the confederacy of evil. {TM 50.2}
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#103687
10/15/08 12:59 PM
10/15/08 12:59 PM
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Charter Member SDA Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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Thank you MM, it is just so difficult when the leadership either turns against you, your family,Conference employed member of your family... or outright does not support you (include all or some of previously listed) though a tough issue that seems so clear to need support. BUT the quotes you have pointed out from SOP does indeed hit this very troubling issue square on the head.
I do believe that God yearns for His people to stad up, support each other and in one accord move forward, BUT until then I guess the tares and wheat will grow together, and until the growing season is ready for harvest that the weeds will remain to "look like" good wheat.
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: D R]
#103688
10/15/08 12:59 PM
10/15/08 12:59 PM
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Charter Member SDA Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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does it get any easier? Will there ever be a time of reconciliation or will we His supposed people remain at a head to head until the second comming?
Last edited by BeachBubbaDan (BBD); 10/15/08 01:00 PM.
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: D R]
#103721
10/16/08 03:18 PM
10/16/08 03:18 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Actually, the situation is going to worsen as end time events unfold and develop. The news is both good and bad. But God's grace is sufficient. Here's how it is described: It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner.--ChS 41 (1893). {LDE 172.1}
Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive of the truth and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment-keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God.--19MR 176 (1898). {LDE 172.2}
Divisions will come in the church. Two parties will be developed. The wheat and tares grow up together for the harvest.--2SM 114 (1896). {LDE 172.3}
There will be a shaking of the sieve. The chaff must in time be separated from the wheat. Because iniquity abounds, the love of many waxes cold. It is the very time when the genuine will be the strongest.--Letter 46, 1887. {LDE 173.1}
The history of the rebellion of Dathan and Abiram is being repeated, and will be repeated till the close of time. Who will be on the Lord's side? Who will be deceived, and in their turn become deceivers?--Letter 15, 1892. {LDE 173.2}
The Lord is soon to come. There must be a refining, winnowing process in every church, for there are among us wicked men who do not love the truth or honor God.--RH March 19, 1895. {LDE 173.3}
We are in the shaking time, the time when everything that can be shaken will be shaken. The Lord will not excuse those who know the truth if they do not in word and deed obey His commands.--6T 332 (1900). {LDE 173.4}
Prosperity multiplies a mass of professors. Adversity purges them out of the church.--4T 89 (1876). {LDE 173.5}
The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church.--5T 81 (1882). {LDE 173.6}
In the absence of the persecution there have drifted into our ranks men who appear sound and their Christianity unquestionable, but who, if persecution should arise, would go out from us.--Ev 360 (1890). {LDE 174.1}
When the law of God is made void the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.--2SM 368 (1891). {LDE 174.2}
The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative [ELLEN WHITE IS NOT HERE DISTINGUISHING THEOLOGICAL CONSERVATIVES FROM THEIR LIBERAL COUNTERPARTS; SHE IS DESCRIBING THOSE WHO PUT "WORLDLY CONFORMITY" FIRST AND GOD'S CAUSE SECOND.] class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith.--5T 463 (1885). {LDE 174.3}
If Satan sees that the Lord is blessing His people and preparing them to discern his delusions, he will work with his master power to bring in fanaticism on the one hand and cold formalism on the other, that he may gather in a harvest of souls.--2SM 19 (1890). {LDE 174.4}
Those who have had privileges and opportunities to become intelligent in regard to the truth and yet who continue to counterwork the work God would have accomplished will be purged out, for God accepts the service of no man whose interest is divided.--Ms 64, 1898. {LDE 175.1}
As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks. Some who are now ready to take up weapons of warfare will in times of real peril make it manifest that they have not built upon the solid rock; they will yield to temptation. Those who have had great light and precious privileges but have not improved them will, under one pretext or another, go out from us.--6T 400 (1900). {LDE 175.2}
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857). {LDE 175.3}
There are those among us who will make confessions, as did Achan, too late to save themselves. . . . They are not in harmony with right. They despise the straight testimony that reaches the heart, and would rejoice to see everyone silenced who gives reproof.--3T 272 (1873). {LDE 175.4}
The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway.--8T 297 (1904). {LDE 176.1}
Even in our day there have been and will continue to be entire families who have once rejoiced in the truth, but who will lose faith because of calumnies and falsehoods brought to them in regard to those whom they have loved and with whom they have had sweet counsel. They opened their hearts to the sowing of tares, the tares sprang up among the wheat, they strengthened, the crop of wheat became less and less, and the precious truth lost its power to them.--TM 411 (1898). {LDE 176.2}
Science, so-called, and religion will be placed in opposition to each other because finite men do not comprehend the power and greatness of God. These words of Holy Writ were presented to me, "Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" [Acts 20:30]. This will surely be seen among the people of God.--Ev 593 (1890). {LDE 176.3}
When the shaking comes, by the introduction of false theories, these surface readers, anchored nowhere, are like shifting sand. They slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings of bitterness.--TM 112 (1897). {LDE 177.1}
Not having received the love of the truth, they will be taken in the delusions of the enemy; they will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils and will depart from the faith.--6T 401 (1900). {LDE 177.2}
The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith.--Ev 224 (1905). {LDE 177.3}
One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit.--3SM 84 (1903). {LDE 177.4}
The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.--1SM 48 (1890). {LDE 177.5}
The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies. . . . This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life.--3SM 83 (1890). {LDE 178.1}
It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.--4T 211. {LDE 178.2}
Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness.--PK 188 (c. 1914). {LDE 178.3}
Men whom He has greatly honored will, in the closing scenes of this earth's history, pattern after ancient Israel. . . . A departure from the great principles Christ has laid down in His teachings, a working out of human projects, using the Scriptures to justify a wrong course of action under the perverse working of Lucifer, will confirm men in misunderstanding, and the truth that they need to keep them from wrong practices will leak out of the soul like water from a leaky vessel.--13MR 379, 381 (1904). {LDE 178.4}
Many will show that they are not one with Christ, that they are not dead to the world, that they may live with Him; and frequent will be the apostasies of men who have occupied responsible positions.--RH Sept. 11, 1888. {LDE 179.1}
The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.--3SM 385 (1886). {LDE 179.2}
Many will stand in our pulpits with the torch of false prophecy in their hands, kindled from the hellish torch of Satan. . . . {LDE 179.3}
Some will go out from among us who will bear the ark no longer. But these can not make walls to obstruct the truth; for it will go onward and upward to the end.--TM 409, 411 (1898). {LDE 179.4}
Ministers and doctors may depart from the faith, as the Word declares they will, and as the messages that God has given His servant declare they will.--7MR 192 (1906). {LDE 179.5}
The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.--4T 89 (1876). {LDE 180.1}
Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat.--5T 81 (1882). {LDE 180.2}
Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. . . . {LDE 180.3}
When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882). {LDE 180.4}
The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.--2SM 380 (1886). {LDE 180.5}
As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.--GC 608 (1911). {LDE 180.6}
The Lord has faithful servants who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.--5T 80, 81 (1882). {LDE 181.1}
On every occasion that persecution takes place, the witnesses make decisions, either for Christ or against Him. Those who show sympathy for the men wrongly condemned, who are not bitter against them, show their attachment for Christ.--ST Feb. 20, 1901. {LDE 181.2}
Let opposition arise, let bigotry and intolerance again bear sway, let persecution be kindled, and the half-hearted and hypocritical will waver and yield the faith; but the true Christian will stand firm as a rock, his faith stronger, his hope brighter than in days of prosperity.--GC 602 (1911). {LDE 181.3}
Some had been shaken out and left by the way. The careless and indifferent, who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to perseveringly plead and agonize for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their places were immediately filled by others taking hold of the truth and coming into the ranks.--EW 271 (1858). {LDE 182.1}
The broken ranks will be filled up by those represented by Christ as coming in at the eleventh hour. There are many with whom the Spirit of God is striving. The time of God's destructive judgments is the time of mercy for those who [now] have no opportunity to learn what is truth. Tenderly will the Lord look upon them. His heart of mercy is touched, His hand is still stretched out to save, while the door is closed to those who would not enter. Large numbers will be admitted who in these last days hear the truth for the first time.--Letter 103, 1903. {LDE 182.2}
Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God.--8T 41 (1904). {LDE 182.3}
There is to be in the [Seventh-day Adventist] churches a wonderful manifestation of the power of God, but it will not move upon those who have not humbled themselves before the Lord, and opened the door of the heart by confession and repentance. In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it. Because the Lord does not work according to their ideas and expectations they will oppose the work. "Why," they say, "should we not know the Spirit of God, when we have been in the work so many years?"--RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890. {LDE 209.3}
The third angel's message will not be comprehended, the light which will lighten the earth with its glory will be called a false light, by those who refuse to walk in its advancing glory.--RH May 27, 1890. {LDE 210.1}
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: D R]
#103856
10/21/08 12:37 AM
10/21/08 12:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 16
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Bear False witness = to not be telling the truth = lying.
bear True witness = to tell the truth = honest Where does "guile" fall into all of this. Guile = deceitful cunning: duplicity Duplicity = 1: contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action ; especially : the belying of one's true intentions by deceptive words or action 2: the quality or state of being double or twofold Look what 1 Peter 2:21-23 says of Jesus: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: A couple of other texts (a search reveals "guile" 11 times): 1 Thessalonians 2:3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile: Psalm 32:2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
. . . Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: . . . I come to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:5-9
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: Surrender]
#103879
10/21/08 06:05 PM
10/21/08 06:05 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The shaking will purge out the unsanctified members and a purified membership will remain to proclaim the 3AMs in whose mouth is no guile. See Rev 14:5. The funny thing is, though, the ones who are without guile are the very ones who say, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." Isa 6:5.
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#103946
10/23/08 03:05 PM
10/23/08 03:05 PM
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Charter Member SDA Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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but how can "we" remain in a local church that 1) does not act upon the 3 Angels Message 2) has little to no "real" mission outreach 3) has a leadership that "cannibalizes" the church and 4) is just plain booring as an entity.
as for # 4, I never felt that the local Church was "booring" before, but over the past few years, the past year esspecially, the message is one of doom and gloom for the local Church...
I am just SO thankful for Pastor Dwight Nelson at Pioneer Memorial, that te Pioneer Memorial Church is available online so I can still worship and hear messages of truth.
-maybe I am just being sifted and I am not a part of the remnent?
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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying?
[Re: D R]
#104013
10/25/08 07:48 PM
10/25/08 07:48 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Dan, try going to church to be a blessing instead of expecting to be blessed and hopefully it will help lesson the pain of attending church. It is more blessed to give than to get. Surely there is one or two people you can bless at church? Remember, Jesus was willing to die for one person. Are you willing to attend church to be a blessing to one person? If not, then take stock of yourself and find out why you go to church.
PS - In spite of all your best intentions and effort some churches are impossible to attend. I doubt that is the case at your church. Hang in there, buddy. Be a blessing. Let your light shine. And don't expect anything in return. If your only reward for well doing is heaven - then heaven is cheap enough.
"Heaven will be cheap enough, if we obtain it through suffering. We must deny self all along the way, die to self daily, let Jesus alone appear, and keep His glory continually in view. I saw that those who of late have embraced the truth would have to know what it is to suffer for Christ's sake, that they would have trials to pass through that would be keen and cutting, in order that they may be purified and fitted through suffering to receive the seal of the living God, pass through the time of trouble, see the King in His beauty, and dwell in the presence of God and of pure, holy angels. {EW 67.1}
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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