Thanx for the study, Tom. Too bad we disagree on such a fundamental truth, namely, rebirth.

It seems to me rebirth is very simple. I believe it's as described here:



The cross is presented to the sinner through the Holy Spirit, who makes an appeal, and if the sinner does not resist, he repents and is born again. It's that simple, as I see it, just as the above states.

I'm sorry you see it as more involved than this, evidently as a protracted process where one gives up all of one's sinful habits until finally one reaches the last one, and then at that point is born again. That's how you see it, right?

Actually, they confess their sinful habits one by one in light of the cross as the Holy Spirit reveals them, but they crucify them all at once the moment they experience rebirth. They are born again without without their former sinful habits and the corresponding traits of character. Listen:

Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter
1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 Peter
1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

1 John
2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Listen as Ellen exlains rebirth in detail:

The youth especially stumble over this phrase, "A new heart." They do not know what it means. They look for a special change to take place in their feelings. This they term conversion. Over this error thousands have stumbled to ruin, not understanding the expression, "Ye must be born again." . . . When Jesus speaks of the new heart, He means the mind, the life, the whole being. To have a change of heart is to withdraw the affections from the world, and fasten them upon Christ. To have a new heart is to have a new mind, new purposes, new motives. What is the sign of a new heart?--a changed life. There is a daily, hourly dying to selfishness and pride. {SD 100.2}

A deep, thorough work is to be wrought in the soul, which the world cannot see. Those who know not what it is to have an experience in the things of God, who . . . have not the witness of the Spirit that they are accepted of Jesus Christ, are in need of being born again. . . . What can the world know of Christian experience? Verily, nothing. "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." The Great Teacher explained this instruction, saying, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." {LHU 124.3}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}

It is certainly important that we become acquainted with the reasons of our faith, but the most important knowledge to be gained is the experimental knowledge of what it means to be born again. {CSW 64.3}

Men who persist in a course of dishonesty will carry out their principles until they cheat their own souls, and lose heaven and eternal life. They will sacrifice honor and religion for a small worldly advantage. There are such men right in our own ranks, and they will have to experience what it is to be born again, or they cannot see the kingdom of God. {CS 142.1}

If the proper instruction were given, if the proper methods were followed, every church member would do his work as a member of the body. He would do Christian missionary work. But the churches are dying, and they want a minister to preach to them. {Ev 381.3}

They should be taught to bring a faithful tithe to God, that He may strengthen and bless them. They should be brought into working order, that the breath of God may come to them. They should be taught that unless they can stand alone, without a minister, they need to be converted anew, and baptized anew. They need to be born again.--Manuscript 150, 1901. {Ev 381.4}

I would address you as Christ addressed Nicodemus: "Ye must be born again." Those who have Christ ruling within will feel no desire to imitate the world's display. They will carry everywhere the standard of the cross, ever bearing witness of higher aims and nobler themes than those in which worldlings are absorbed. Our dress, our dwellings, our conversation, should testify of our consecration to God. What power would attend those who thus evinced that they had given up all for Christ. God would not be ashamed to acknowledge them as His children. He would bless His devoted people, and the unbelieving world would fear Him. {5T 189.2}

Jesus virtually says to Nicodemus: It is not controversy that will help your case: it is not arguments that will bring light to the soul. You must have a new heart, or you cannot discern the kingdom of heaven It is not greater evidence that will bring you into a right position, but new purposes, new springs of action. You must be born again. Until this change takes place, making all things new, the strongest evidences that could be presented would be useless. The want is in your own heart; everything must be changed, or you cannot see the kingdom of God. {TM 368.1}

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Christ longs to work mightily by His Spirit for the conviction and conversion of sinners. But, according to His divine plan, the work must be performed through the instrumentality of His church; and her members have so far departed from Him that He cannot accomplish His will through them. He chooses to work by means, yet the means employed must be in harmony with His character. {5T 189.3}

The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

There are very many who claim to serve God, but who have no experimental knowledge of Him. Their desire to do His will is based upon their own inclination, not upon the deep conviction of the Holy Spirit. Their conduct is not brought into harmony with the law of God. They profess to accept Christ as their Saviour, but they do not believe that He will give them power to overcome their sins. They have not a personal relation with a living Saviour, and their characters reveal defects both hereditary and cultivated. {COL 48.1}

It is one thing to assent in a general way to the agency of the Holy Spirit, and another thing to accept His work as a reprover calling to repentance. Many feel a sense of estrangement from God, a realization of their bondage to self and sin; they make efforts for reform; but they do not crucify self. They do not give themselves entirely into the hands of Christ, seeking for divine power to do His will. They are not willing to be molded after the divine similitude. In a general way they acknowledge their imperfections, but they do not give up their particular sins. With each wrong act the old selfish nature is gaining strength. {COL 48.2}

The only hope for these souls is to realize in themselves the truth of Christ's words to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again." "Except a man be born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God." John 3:7, 3, margin. {COL 48.3}

True holiness is wholeness in the service of God. This is the condition of true Christian living. Christ asks for an unreserved consecration, for undivided service. He demands the heart, the mind, the soul, the strength. Self is not to be cherished. He who lives to himself is not a Christian. {COL 48.4}

The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

Neither the Bible nor the SOP leave the impression that people experience the miracle of rebirth and then begin a slow, gradual process of outgrowing the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth.

SD 300
The old sinful life is dead; the new life entered into with Christ by the pledge of baptism. Practise the virtues of the Saviour's character. Let His wisdom dwell in you richly in all wisdom; "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." . . . The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

I don't know of a single person whose experience of conversion was like this. I know of many whose experience was like what EGW explained in the quote I cited speaking of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus.

What you're saying just doesn't make sense. First you say, "In the light of the cross" they confess their sins one by one. In this case, they crucify the sin right then and there.



Secondly, what logic would there be in confessing sins one by one, but not crucifying them, only to have them all, in some future single moment, jointly crucified, when they aren't being confessed?

Which of the Scriptures you quoted suggests that sins are confessed in the light of the cross by people, one by one, by people who are not born again?



Given your understanding of sinful habits as not pertaining to unknown sins, I agree. Would you agree they begin a slow, gradual process of becoming more and more like Christ?

T: I don't know of a single person whose experience of conversion was like this.

M: How would you know?

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T: Every sin acknowledged before God with a contrite heart, He will remove.(TM 92)

M: Are you assuming they are crucified right then and there? I ask because she doesn't say so in this quote.

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T: Secondly, what logic would there be in confessing sins one by one, but not crucifying them, only to have them all, in some future single moment, jointly crucified, when they aren't being confessed? Which of the Scriptures you quoted suggests that sins are confessed in the light of the cross by people, one by one, by people who are not born again?

M: Note the when-then, the before and after sequence in the following passages: "If we {1} confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to {2} cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us {1} cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, {2} perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (1 Cor 7:1) "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh {1} hath ceased from sin; that {2} he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1, 2)

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T: Given your understanding of sinful habits as not pertaining to unknown sins, I agree.

M: Yes, I know you agree, however, your list of unknown sins contains sinful habits and corresponding sinful traits of character which are not on my list. Herein lies our disagreement. In the case of people who are like the following person, which sinful habits do you think they might practice ignorantly?

"The man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works . . . {and} have received the knowledge of the truth . . . to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . . . {who are} enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come . . . {who} abideth in him . . . {who} walk in the Spirit . . . {who are} partakers of the divine nature . . . {who have} escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust . . . {who} hath ceased from sin . . . {who} no longer {lives} the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God . . . {who} offend not in word . . . {who} doth not sin . . . {and} cannot sin."

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T: Would you agree they begin a slow, gradual process of becoming more and more like Christ?

M: Yes, of course. We begin a rebirth where Jesus began at birth. That is, we begin maturing in the fruits of the Spirit the moment self dies, the instant we are born again. And we continue to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit so long as we are abiding in Jesus. The instant we neglect to abide in Jesus we resurrect the old man and resume sinning. However, the instant we exercise the gift of repentance we are restored to the mind of the new man and we resume becoming more and more like Jesus, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. In fact, eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our ability to become more and more like Jesus.

Bump for Tom.

By what they told me about it. How else? Can't read their mind.



Confessing with a contrite heart is crucifying it. We know this by the fact that the sin is removed. God wouldn't remove an uncrucified sin.



Same question. What logic would there be in confessing sins one by one, but not crucifying them, only to have them all, in some future single moment, jointly crucified, when they aren't being confessed?

Here's what I think makes sense. A person is born again. As a part of being born again, he confesses the sins which the Holy Spirit may bring to his mind. This is not every sin he has committed, but those sins which most weigh on the mind of the person being converted, those which are most damaging to him, most causing problems in therms of his being right with God. The person repents and invites Christ into his heart.

If after this point in time the person sins, if he confesses that sin, he is forgiven.

I don't see anything in the Scriptures you presented that would suggest the idea that you confess sins one by one over a prolonged period of time, and that when you get to the last one, then you are born again. Indeed, this doesn't make sense, because why would a person not born again be confessing sins? And how would this be useful? One needs to be born again to be right with God.



You're right that we disagree here. You exclude just about all sins. The entire last half of the law you exclude. This is what I most disagree with. What basis is there for treating one part of the law differently than another in terms of sins of ignorance? I think just about any sin could be a sin of ignorance. If you speak specifically of those who are oriented by SDA's in preparation of baptism, certain obvious external sins would be eliminated, but any inward sin could be a sin of ignorance.



It seems like you have a catch 22 here. That is, you say as long as a person is abiding in Jesus he can't sin. But not abiding in Jesus is itself a sin. So at least that sin can be committed. And isn't is sin itself that causes one to stop abiding in Jesus? That is, as long as one is not sinning, isn't one abiding in Jesus?

You know me, don’t you? If not, then rest assured I am one who has experienced rebirth and conversion in the way the Bible and the SOP describe it. I just spent the weekend hiking with Jim Hohnberger and his son last week and they testified to the same thing. Mind you, I was a baptized member of the Remnant Church for 13 years before I experienced it.


The quote is talking about acknowledging cultivated traits of character – not crucifying them. “He will remove” is referring to the future. It doesn’t specify when. Other quotes say it happens the moment they experience the miracle of rebirth.

By the way, in what sense do you think they are removed? Are cultivated traits removed in the sense born again believers no longer possess them, that they have been uprooted, that they no longer represent weaknesses, that they no longer tempt and annoy?


Because all cultivated sinful traits of character fall under the general category of “selfishness”. It is not possible to crucify the “old man” one by one for the simple reason the old man is one – not many. The old man is the accumulated result of thousands of sins.


Why would a person acknowledge his sins before experiencing rebirth? Because that’s how it works. Repentance, which includes acknowledging sins, always precedes rebirth. “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19) Listen:


Heeding the invitation of Christ, repentance, and rebirth are three separate steps in the process of conversion. You have yet to quote an inspired passage which supports the idea that people are born again with uncrucified cultivated traits of character. The opposite is clearly presented. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {6BC 1075.7} Listen again:

The descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Gentiles was not an equivalent for baptism. The requisite steps in conversion, in all cases, are faith, repentance, and baptism. Thus the true Christian church are united in one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Diverse temperaments are modified by sanctifying grace, and the same distinguishing principles regulate the lives of all. {SR 289.2}

The steps in conversion, plainly marked out, are repentance, faith in Christ as the world's Redeemer, faith in His death, burial, and resurrection, shown by baptism, and His ascension on high to plead in the sinner's behalf. At the very commencement of His public ministry, He presents Himself in the character He sustains to man throughout His mediatorial work. He identifies Himself with sinners as their substitute, taking upon Himself their sins, numbering Himself with the transgressors, and doing the work the sinner is required to do in repentance, faith, and willing obedience. What an example is here given in the life of Christ for sinners to imitate! If they will not follow the example given them, they will be without excuse. {LHU 79.4}


You didn’t answer my question, though. Please read the following description of a Christian and then cite an example of a cultivated sinful trait of character they might practice ignorantly. Thank you.

"The man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works . . . {and} have received the knowledge of the truth . . . to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . . . {who are} enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come . . . {who} abideth in him . . . {who} walk in the Spirit . . . {who are} partakers of the divine nature . . . {who have} escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust . . . {who} hath ceased from sin . . . {who} no longer {lives} the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God . . . {who} offend not in word . . . {who} doth not sin . . . {and} cannot sin."


Correct – not abiding in Jesus means people are abiding in sin, self, and Satan. Abiding in Jesus means they are not sinning, that they are maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. There is no neutral place where people are neither sinning nor being righteous. We are either all of His and free of sin or none of His and full of sin. “Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Rom 8:9, 10)

You said I said, “But not abiding in Jesus is itself a sin.” Actually, neglecting to abide in Jesus when tempted results in people sinning. To sin, FMAs must first separate themselves from Jesus. This is true whether they are sinless angels or born again believers. Is it a sin to neglect to abide in Jesus? No! Nevertheless, it results in them sinning. Again, they must first neglect to abide in Jesus and then they sin – but both happen nearly simultaneously so that for all intents and purposes they are one and the same thing.