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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104256
11/06/08 03:26 AM
11/06/08 03:26 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The quote is talking about acknowledging cultivated traits of character – not crucifying them. “He will remove” is referring to the future. It doesn’t specify when.


Here's more of the quote:

Quote:
The efficacy of the blood of Christ was to be presented to the people with freshness and power, that their faith might lay hold upon its merits. As the high priest sprinkled the warm blood upon the mercy seat, while the fragrant cloud of incense ascended before God, so while we confess our sins and plead the efficacy of Christ's atoning blood, our prayers are to ascend to heaven, fragrant with the merits of our Saviour's character. Notwithstanding our unworthiness, we are ever to bear in mind that there is One that can take away sin and save the sinner. Every sin acknowledged before God with a contrite heart, He will remove.(TM 92)


She said, previous to the sentence I quoted earlier, that there is One who can take away sin and save the sinner. She's clearly not talking about some future time! Now is the day of salvation! She's not saying you pray for God to take away your sin, and at some future time God will respond to your prayer. Not at all! When we pray for forgiveness, at that very moment, God forgives:

Quote:
nd the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14)


This is Gospel truth, taught by the Master Himself. The prayer "God, be merciful to me a sinner" is met how? "This man went down to his house justified."

Regarding how the sins are removed:

Quote:
Though all the record of all our sin, even though written with the finger of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the rock, and the rock should be ground to powder—even this would not blot out our sin.

The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from nature, the being of man.

The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. 'The worshippers once purged' [Hebrews 10:2, 3]—actually purged by the blood of Christ—have 'no more conscience of sins,' because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them—it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself—they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary (E. J. Waggoner, The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902).


Quote:
T: Same question. What logic would there be in confessing sins one by one, but not crucifying them, only to have them all, in some future single moment, jointly crucified, when they aren't being confessed?

MM:Because all cultivated sinful traits of character fall under the general category of “selfishness”. It is not possible to crucify the “old man” one by one for the simple reason the old man is one – not many. The old man is the accumulated result of thousands of sins.


Then there's no reason for a requirement that anything be done other than crucifying the old man. Not the confession of thousands of sins, but the crucifixion of one old man. This is done the moment the sinner receives Christ.

Quote:

Why would a person acknowledge his sins before experiencing rebirth? Because that’s how it works.


No, that's not how it works! Here's how it works:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. (DA 175)


Quote:
You have yet to quote an inspired passage which supports the idea that people are born again with uncrucified cultivated traits of character.


Why should I? Have I made this claim? I don't even think the phrase "uncrucified cultivate trait of character" makes sense. Can you produce an inspired passage which even has the phrase "uncrucified cultivated trait of character" in it? If no such phrase even exists, how could I produce an inspired quote which something specific about it?

Quote:
You didn’t answer my question, though.


Yes, I did.

Quote:
Cite an example of a cultivated sinful trait of character they might practice ignorantly.


This is another phrase which doesn't make sense to me. I was speaking of unknown sins. Do you think there is such a thing as an unknown sin? Besides not keeping the Sabbath, or some other behavior which Adventists do?

Quote:
Is it a sin to neglect to abide in Jesus? No!


Before you said it was. Why did you change your mind?

The Holy Spirit is constantly seeking to draw our attention to Christ. In order to "neglect to abide in Jesus" a person would have to resist the Holy Spirit. That's a sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104281
11/07/08 02:24 AM
11/07/08 02:24 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, please read the following description of a Christian and then cite an example of a cultivated trait of character they might practice ignorantly. Thank you.

"The man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works . . . {and} have received the knowledge of the truth . . . to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . . . {who are} enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come . . . {who} abideth in him . . . {who} walk in the Spirit . . . {who are} partakers of the divine nature . . . {who have} escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust . . . {who} hath ceased from sin . . . {who} no longer {lives} the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God . . . {who} offend not in word . . . {who} doth not sin . . . {and} cannot sin."

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104282
11/07/08 02:33 AM
11/07/08 02:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I don't even think the phrase "uncrucified cultivated trait of character" makes sense.

Here is where the phrase comes from:

Let not self wax to great proportions lest the whole man be defiled. One leak will sink a ship, and one flaw break a chain; so there may be some hereditary or cultivated trait of character that will work in the heart and develop into words that will make an impression for evil which will never be effaced. We are all building for eternity. Let the character have the impress of the divine in pure, noble utterances, in upright deeds. Then the whole universe of heaven will behold and say, Well done, good and faithful servant.--Lt 91, 1899. {2MCP 728.4}

The word of God often comes in collision with man's hereditary and cultivated traits of character and his habits of life. But the good-ground hearer, in receiving the word, accepts all its conditions and requirements. His habits, customs, and practices are brought into submission to God's word. In his view the commands of finite, erring man sink into insignificance beside the word of the infinite God. With the whole heart, with undivided purpose, he is seeking the life eternal, and at the cost of loss, persecution, or death itself, he will obey the truth. {COL 60.3}

In harmony with this experience is the command, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil. 2:12, 13. God does not bid you fear that He will fail to fulfill His promises, that His patience will weary, or His compassion be found wanting. Fear lest your will shall not be held in subjection to Christ's will, lest your hereditary and cultivated traits of character shall control your life. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Fear lest self shall interpose between your soul and the great Master Worker. Fear lest self-will shall mar the high purpose that through you God desires to accomplish. Fear to trust to your own strength, fear to withdraw your hand from the hand of Christ and attempt to walk life's pathway without His abiding presence. {COL 161.1}

The simplicity of true godliness must be brought into the education of our young people, if they are to know how to escape the corruption that is in the world. They must be taught that the true followers of Christ will serve God not only when it is in accordance with their inclinations, but also when it involves self-denial and cross-bearing. Besetting sins must be battled with and overcome. Objectionable traits of character, whether hereditary or cultivated, must be compared with the great rule of righteousness, and then conquered in the strength of Christ. Day by day, hour by hour, a vigorous work of self-denial and of sanctification must go on within; then the works will bear witness that Jesus is abiding in the heart by faith. Sanctification does not close the avenues of the soul to knowledge, but expands the mind and inspires it to search for truth as for hidden treasure. {CT 449.1}

Those who fail to realize their constant dependence upon God will be overcome by temptation. We may now suppose that our feet stand secure, and that we shall never be moved. We may say with confidence, "I know in whom I have believed; nothing can shake my faith in God and in His word." But Satan is planning to take advantage of our hereditary and cultivated traits of character, and to blind our eyes to our own necessities and defects. Only through realizing our own weakness and looking steadfastly unto Jesus can we walk securely. {DA 382.4}

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104295
11/07/08 03:48 AM
11/07/08 03:48 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
"Cultivated trait of character" is fine, but where does she speak of an "uncrucified cultivated trait of character"?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104338
11/08/08 02:38 PM
11/08/08 02:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
You are serious?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104339
11/08/08 02:39 PM
11/08/08 02:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, please address #104281 above on this thread. Thank you.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104347
11/08/08 08:26 PM
11/08/08 08:26 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Self-pity. Yes, I don't thing "uncrucified trait of character" exists. Am I wrong?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104358
11/08/08 09:51 PM
11/08/08 09:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I don't understand your last post.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104359
11/08/08 09:51 PM
11/08/08 09:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, please read the following description of a Christian and then cite an example of a cultivated trait of character they might practice ignorantly. Thank you.

"The man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works . . . {and} have received the knowledge of the truth . . . to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . . . {who are} enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come . . . {who} abideth in him . . . {who} walk in the Spirit . . . {who are} partakers of the divine nature . . . {who have} escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust . . . {who} hath ceased from sin . . . {who} no longer {lives} the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God . . . {who} offend not in word . . . {who} doth not sin . . . {and} cannot sin."

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104380
11/09/08 12:42 AM
11/09/08 12:42 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Self pity is the example you asked for. I didn't find any references to "uncultivated traits of character" in the SOP. Do you know of any?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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