The cases of Lucifer and A&E are so different that it is impossible to draw this kind of conclusion. Also, you have not proven it. Nowhere in the Bible is willful, deliberate, intentional sin pardoned. Only unintentional sins could be pardoned. The sacrificial system did not make provision for the forgiveness of willful sins. Listen:

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Lucifer's sin falls into this category. He knew God so well that the instant he sinned was the moment he committed the unpardonable sin.

The penalty for breaking the law is capital punishment.


If this were true then the human race would have ended with the death of A&E. Also, there would have been no need for God to station angels at the tree of life. Remember, sinners can live forever if they regularly eat from the tree of life. Obviously sin does not kill sinners.


The only reason sinners do not die the day they sin is due to the fact God is withholding capital punishment. The plan of salvation gives God the legal right to grant sinners grace and probation to cease from sin and to begin abiding in Jesus maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.


". . . so that he could pardon us freely." Even Fifield agrees Jesus died "so that" God could pardon penitent sinners. By the way, you make it sound like repentance atones for past sins. But nothing could be further from the truth.


God lovingly warns sinners to seek refuge in Christ that they might escape the wrath to come. Sin does not kill sinners. If it did, there would be no reason to resurrect them at the end of time. The fact sinners live for years without dying is convincing evidence sin does not kill them. Again, even you believe and teach sinners must be exposed to the unmingled wrath of God in order to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness.

Matthew
3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
3:10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ephesians
5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians
3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

1 Thessalonians
1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Revelation
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Lucifer sinned, and God offered him pardon. That's all we need to know to establish that God does not need Christ's death to offer pardon.



??? What? Willful, deliberate, intentional sin can be pardoned. Of course it can. When we repent, our sin is pardoned. Why do you think willful sin cannot be pardoned? Have you never committed a willful sin? If so, then you are unpardoned?



This stems from the idea that sin is innocuous, only resulting in death if some external power is applied to kill the offender. This makes it unlike the serpent's bite, which causes death, not because capital punishment is applied to the offender (i.e., the one who is broken) but because poison causes death.



??? No, the human race continued because of procreation.



No, this isn't obvious. The tree of life has healing properties. That sin kills in implicit in God's warning that they would die if they ate of the tree.



We disagree here. You see sin as innocuous. I see it as deadly.



How could God pardon us if we did not repent? If you agree with what Fifield said, we are in agreement?



I don't understand this. I'm not conceiving of the problem as a legal one. It looks like you're taking my statements, which do not accept your paradigm, and applying them to your paradigm.

I would never say that repentance atones for sins. That makes no sense to me. Christ's death atones for sins for the reason that Fifield brought out.



Ok. We disagree. I believe sin kills sinners, and God does all He can to save sinners from sin so they won't be killed. You believe God kills sinners. We disagree.

I think you're way of looking at things portrays God in a negative way, and that it leads to a relationship with God where fear is an underlying motivation (we must act in a certain way to make sure God does not kill us).



So the only possible reason for God to resurrect the wicked is so He can kill them?



Why isn't it evidence of God's grace, giving them the opportunity to repent?



What I understand will happen is totally different than what you understand. The wrath of God is not His being angry and venting that anger against the wicked by burning them alive and then killing them. It is His "giving them up," as Paul puts it in Romans 1.

Tom, can you prove from the Bible that sin kills sinners? I see no evidence in the Bible or in reality that sin kills sinners. People sin all the time without dying. Instead, I see people dying of diseases, accidents, wars, murder, etc. But I have never witnessed sin killing someone.

When I read about it in the Bible, I see God punishing and destroying sinners. I see holy angels killing sinners. I see evil angels killing sinners. I read about God resurrecting sinners at the end of time and then judging them and then killing them. But nowhere do I read about sin killing sinners.

Again, if sin kills sinners, as you say, why, then, do sinners sin all the time without dying? Does God somehow override the natural effect of sin? If so, why don't we read about it the Bible? Instead, we read about God raining down fire from above, raising up fire from below, and exposing them to the light of His radiant presence and brightness.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Lucifer's case in heaven and Adam's case in Eden are so different that they cannot be compared. Lucifer sinned in perfect knowledge of God's love and Adam sinned in perfect ignorance of God's love. No one tempted Lucifer to sin but Adam was tempted to sin.

These critical differences account for why God could offer to pardon Lucifer without the death of Jesus and why He couldn't offer to pardon Adam without it. Nevertheless, it also accounts for why God did not perceive Lucifer's actions as sin before he openly rebelled. It also accounts for why God did perceive Adam's actions as sin when he ate the forbidden fruit.


Perhaps you overlooked the following quote (quoted in a previous post):

Hebrews
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Sure.





Yes, of course.



We do. 2 Cor. 5:14, 15 speaks of this. Romans 5:12-18. Those are a couple of spots.



Sure they can be. They both sinned, and God offered both pardon.



This makes it even more amazing that God offered Lucifer pardon!



Why? Why would sinning in ignorance require Christ's death, but sinning in light wouldn't? I actually agree with your statement, but I would read God's not being able to offer pardon without death as a constraint upon man, not upon God. Like explained here:



This makes perfect sense. God did what was necessary to enable man to repent, so that He could pardon him.

However, I don't see the sense in your idea, which is that God was constrained, so that He could not offer man pardon without Christ's dying, because man sinned by being temped, and not with as full an understanding of God's character as Lucifer had. Otoh, God was not constrained to offer Lucifer pardon. This seems backwards. What would the presence of ignorance constrain God?



??? He clearly did. In Ezekiel, it speaks of Lucifer's being perfect until iniquity was found in him. The SOP, in speaking of Lucifer's fall, applies this passage to the *beginning* of Lucifer's fall, well *before* his actual rebellion.

In "The Great Controversy" she writes that God offered Lucifer pardon "again and again," so clearly Lucifer had sinned.

In 4SP, I think, she writes that *before* being banished from heaven (which is *before* Lucifer's open rebellion) he was given the opportunity to "confess his sin."

Before his open rebellion, his heart was full of envy and hatred against Christ, which is sin (Hating Christ is sin).

Lucifer made false claims to the loyal angels. This is sin. *After* doing this God offered to pardon him.

Lucifer indulged the spirit of discontent. This is sin. *After* doing this, God offered to pardon him.

I don't know how anyone could read either of what Lucifer did and not think that he sinned.



Hebrews is speaking of the unpardonable sin.

Let me just ask you, have you ever commited a deliberate, intentional sin? If so, were you pardoned of it?

1. Tom, at what point do you think Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin?

2. How did his unpardonable sin differ from the sins leading up to the unpardonable sin?

3. When do humans commit the unpardonable sin described in Hebrews?

4. How does the unpardonable sin differ from the sins leading up to it?

PS - I'll answer your pointed and personal question after I understand more of what you think and believe about it.

Immediately before being banished from heaven.



The unpardonable sin is a gradual hardening of the heart. It doesn't happen in a moment, but as the Holy Spirit is continually rejected, eventually one becomes unable to respond to Him. So asking how it is different isn't really addressing what happened.



Same answer.



The answer to 2. should answer this.



I'm just asking if you've ever committed a deliberate sin and been pardoned of it. This doesn't seem like a personal question to me. I'm not asking you what it is. You've quoted Paul as saying, "All have sinned." Do you you think he only had sins of ignorance in mind?

I agree that this applies to unconverted sinners, but I disagree that it applies to seasoned saints "who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come." People such as this cannot indulge sin without committing the unpardonable sin. Lucifer was in this category before he sinned. I am not yet in this category.

Hebrews
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.