I've already addressed the self-centered sin of self-pity. Ellen makes it thoroughly clear that no truly, genuinely born again believer is ignorant of the deleterious effects of self-pity. Even Rosangela, the basis of your example, admitted that she was at least vaguely aware of the sinfulness of self-pity. She merely justified indulging it because it required too much effort to rein it in.

Ellen speaks plenty about crucifying cultivated traits of character. She regularly reproved people for not reining in their hereditary and cultivated traits and tendencies. The fact people live in slavery to cultivated traits and tendencies is clear proof they haven't crucified them, hence the expression - "uncrucified cultivated traits of character".

Tom, please read the following description of a Christian and then cite an example of a cultivated trait of character you think such people might practice ignorantly. Thank you.

"The man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works . . . {and} have received the knowledge of the truth . . . to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . . . {who are} enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come . . . {who} abideth in him . . . {who} walk in the Spirit . . . {who are} partakers of the divine nature . . . {who have} escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust . . . {who} hath ceased from sin . . . {who} no longer {lives} the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God . . . {who} offend not in word . . . {who} doth not sin . . . {and} cannot sin."

Was she born again at this point? She says she was. I believe her.

That she was vaguely aware of it is exactly my point. There are all sorts of things we are vaguely aware of, but until it is clear to us that we are doing wrong, it's not a known sin.

Born again people can indulge sinful practices. They do not lose the ability to sin. Also, Rosangela confessed she knew it was wrong to indulge the self-centered sin of self-pity, but she chose to do so anyhow, justifying her actions blaming it on weakness. The point is, self-pity is not an example of a sin that properly indoctrinated SDA believers might indulge without realizing they are guilty of wrongdoing. Nor is it an example of a sin that people described above might indulge ignorantly.

Ellen speaks plenty about crucifying cultivated traits of character. She regularly reproved people for not reining in their hereditary and cultivated traits and tendencies. The fact people live in slavery to cultivated traits and tendencies is clear proof they haven't crucified them, hence the expression - "uncrucified cultivated traits of character". Does this make sense to you?

PS - Please address #104425. Or else tell me why you are ignoring it. Thank you.

I'll give another example, although I'm not sure it will be understood. Since I was a very small child I had been addicted to soap operas. Finding reality too hard to deal with, I developed a tendency to flee from it by watching soap operas and reading romances. When I joined the church (although I hadn't yet been born again) I of course quit doing these things for a sense of Christian duty, if for no other reason. However, if I occasionally turned on the TV, for instance, to watch the news, and it happened to be still showing a soap opera, I couldn't keep my eyes away from the screen. It was stronger than I was. So now and then I succumbed to the temptation and watched some of the episodes, or, if I resisted the temptation to watch it, I had a species of compulsion which led me to read in a magazine or website what was going to happen in the next episodes. (Doesn't it sound ridiculous?) After I was born again, I obtained the victory over many of my sins, but I think I didn't consider that this was a problem, because I spent months or even more than a year without watching soap operas, only succumbing to the temptation occasionally (and every time I thought it wouldn't happen again). Until I realized that, although I did everything to resist the temptation, I still succumbed to it occasionally because I loved that thing. It brought me pleasure. I realized that it was an idol which had been hiding at some corner of my heart. I cried as I asked God, with all my heart, to remove from me the love for that sin. It seems silly, doesn't it, but this was very difficult for me. It was like if a part of myself was dying. And it was, and it hurt! But I finally experienced complete freedom from that thing. This happened some five or six years ago, more than 25 years after I was born again. See, for a long time I didn't realize that that sin was an idol, because most of the time I managed to stay away from it, and had only occasional relapses. But I praise the Lord for the patient work of the Holy Spirit in my life.

Ah yes, novelas. My wife would listen to the "soap operas" on the radio when she was a kid. She learned Spanish from watching them.

For those not in the know, what Rosangela calls a "soap opera" is not like the soap operas we have here, which never end. It's more like an extended mini-series. They are shows that go on for a number of months, depending on how much of a following they get.

The word in Portuguese (and Spanish) is "novela" which in English is like "novel." The novel in English was originally in the form of magazine installments which came monthly. They were then put together as a book, and called "novels." Many of Dickens books, for example, were originally written this way.

I think this is a good example. Anything which becomes an all-absorbing interest could fall into this category.

Yet it is. Rosangela was a properly indoctrinated SDA who indulged in this without realizing she was guilty of wrongdoing. Having a vague sense of doing something wrong is not the same thing as realizing one is guilty of wrongdoing.

Is there any sin you would see as falling in this category? Are you saying that a properly indoctrinated SDA would not commit any sin (even unknown sins) assuming he is abiding in Jesus? It sounds like this is what you're saying.

Rosangela, it sounds like you believed early on it was a sin to indulge soap operas. And, you viewed your occasional slips as indulging sin. My question for you is - Did you perceive the times you resisted the temptation to indulge soap operas as victories?

What is the difference between the victories you experience now and the victories you used to experience between lapses?

No, Mike, they seemed to me more like a sacrifice - if that was wrong, I shouldn't indulge in it, although I liked it.


"Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."
They no longer have any appeal to me.