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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104761
11/17/08 11:37 PM
11/17/08 11:37 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Two sources of temptation:

Quote:
Temptation is enticement to sin, and this does not proceed from God, but from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. {MB 116.2}

Great quote. Thanx, Arnold.

We have both of those sources of temptation. Did Jesus have both?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104763
11/18/08 12:22 AM
11/18/08 12:22 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Yes. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." It is not a sin to be temptation. Being tempted from within in no way contaminates or corrupts character. Otherwise, the 144,000 would be unable to stand in the sight of God without a Mediator.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104766
11/18/08 12:35 AM
11/18/08 12:35 AM
asygo  Offline
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So you're saying that Jesus was tempted by Satan and by the evil of His own heart?

I can go for the Satan part, but I don't think Jesus had evil in His heart. On the contrary, His nature recoiled from evil.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104773
11/18/08 12:52 AM
11/18/08 12:52 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Jesus did not have an evil heart; instead, He was incarnated with the same sinful flesh you and I inherited at birth. Yes, His sinless, divine nature recoiled from evil; nevertheless, His sinful nature clamored for sinful expression. Such clamoring do not constitute a sin, nor does it contaminate or corrupt character.

How do you interpret and apply the "sin that dwelleth in me" and the "motions of sins"? See Romans 7:5, 17, 20.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104775
11/18/08 01:06 AM
11/18/08 01:06 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus did not have an evil heart; instead, He was incarnated with the same sinful flesh you and I inherited at birth. Yes, His sinless, divine nature recoiled from evil; nevertheless, His sinful nature clamored for sinful expression. Such clamoring do not constitute a sin, nor does it contaminate or corrupt character.

We have two sources of sin: Satan and the evil of our own hearts. That's according to the MB quote. If Jesus did not have an evil heart, that only leaves Him with Satan as a source of temptation. Right?

If I clamor for sin, that does not contaminate me? Wouldn't clamoring for sin be equivalent to a desire for sin? Does one clamor for that which he does not desire?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
How do you interpret and apply the "sin that dwelleth in me" and the "motions of sins"? See Romans 7:5, 17, 20.

Those are the manifestations of the evil in my heart. They are also called "inbred sin" and "natural selfishness" in the SOP. Jesus didn't have those either.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104789
11/18/08 06:50 AM
11/18/08 06:50 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Quote:
In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor,meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.(7 SDABC 926)


It is not the nature of God, and the nature of unfallen Adam which meet in Christ, but the nature of "Adam, the transgressor."

As Waggoner stated:

Quote:
A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5. (Christ and His Righteousness)


A. T. Jones taught the same idea. So did W. W. Prescott.

A short time after 1888, Ellen White preached along side Jones and Waggoner. During this time she wrote:

Quote:
Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if He had, He would have fallen under similar temptations. If He did not have man's nature, He could not be our example. If He was not a partaker of our nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for Him to yield to temptation, He could not be our helper. (1SM 408)


Jones and Waggoner taught the post-lapsarian position, along side of Ellen White, and she received questions about it. She defended what they (she and Jones and Waggoner) with the above.

In 1895 and 1896, Ellen White endorsed W. W. Prescott's preaching in similar language to Jones and Waggoner. For example:

Quote:
In the evening Professor Prescott gave a most valuable lesson, precious as gold. The tent was full, and many stood outside. All seemed to be fascinated with the word, as he presented the truth in lines so new to those not of our faith. Truth was separated from error, and made, by the divine Spirit, to shine like precious jewels.(The Review and Herald, January 7, 1896)


This quote is in specific reference to a sermon of Prescott's entitled, "The Word Made Flesh," a sermon about Christ's taking our sinful nature.

During the Holy Flesh crisis, S. N. Haskell wrote to EGW:

Quote:
We tried to do the very best we could, and had they not have talked against us and misrepresented our position, there would have been no confusion with the people. But when we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned, notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us.

Their point of theology in this particular respect seems to be this: They believe that Christ took Adam’s nature before He fell; so He took humanity as it was in the garden of Eden; and thus humanity was holy, and this was the humanity which Christ had; and now, they say, the particular time has come for us to become holy in that same sense, and then we will have "translation faith"; and never die"


These are the same issues which come up today between post-lapsarians and pre-lapsarians! "They" believe that Christ took Adam's nature before He fell. "We" believe that Christ was born in fallen humanity.

For 100 years, how many statements appeared in an SDA publication stating that Christ took a sinless human nature? None. Not a one.

Ellen White preached along side post-lapsarians, endorsed their preaching in the strongest possible terms, defended their positions, and specifically endorsed their sermons dealing with the human nature of Christ. If one considers her actions and the circumstances surrounding her writings, there can be no doubt Ellen White was a post-lapsarian. It's simply not viable historically that she could have been otherwise.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104799
11/18/08 02:35 PM
11/18/08 02:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor,meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.(7 SDABC 926)

It is not the nature of God, and the nature of unfallen Adam which meet in Christ, but the nature of "Adam, the transgressor."

So, Tom, do you believe that Jesus was tempted by the evil of His own heart?

Quote:
When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. {GC 505.2}

Is this the nature you believe Jesus had?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104803
11/18/08 03:20 PM
11/18/08 03:20 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
This describes a temptation from within:

"It is true that Christ at one time said of himself, 'The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.' John 14:30. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But he could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. Jesus did not consent to sin. Not even by a thought could he be brought to the power of Satan's temptations. Yet it is written of Christ that he was tempted in all points like as we are. Many hold that from the nature of Christ it was impossible for Satan's temptations to weaken or overthrow him. Then Christ could not have been placed in Adam's position, to go over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell; he could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. Unless he was placed in a position as trying as that in which Adam stood, he could not redeem Adam's failure. If man has in any sense a more trying conflict to endure than had Christ, then Christ is not able to succor him when tempted. Christ took humanity with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man with the possibility of yielding to temptation, and he relied upon divine power to keep him." {GCB, February 25, 1895 par. 6}

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104812
11/18/08 05:20 PM
11/18/08 05:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Jesus did not have an evil heart; instead, He was incarnated with the same sinful flesh you and I inherited at birth. Yes, His sinless, divine nature recoiled from evil; nevertheless, His sinful nature clamored for sinful expression. Such clamoring do not constitute a sin, nor does it contaminate or corrupt character.

A: We have two sources of sin: Satan and the evil of our own hearts. That's according to the MB quote. If Jesus did not have an evil heart, that only leaves Him with Satan as a source of temptation. Right?

Arnold, the Bible says Jesus was tempted in "all points like as we are". In the following passages Ellen describes some of the ways we are tempted:

Quote:
There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

The conflict will be close between self and the grace of God. Self will strive for the mastery and will be opposed to the work of bringing the life and thoughts, the will and affections, into subjection to the will of Christ. {2T 687.3}

Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. Then you will think candidly and wisely how to take yourself to the Lord. You will foresee the evils which will come, unless you change by avoiding the cause which produces the effect. {VSS 304.4}

He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

If Jesus did not possess the same hereditary traits and tendencies we possess, which tempt and strive for the mastery, then it cannot be truly said that He was tempted in all points like we are. Doesn't this make sense?

Originally Posted By: asygo
If I clamor for sin, that does not contaminate me? Wouldn't clamoring for sin be equivalent to a desire for sin? Does one clamor for that which he does not desire?

Yes. But I'm not talking about people clamoring for sinful expression, cherishing sinful thoughts and feelings. Instead, I'm talking about sinful flesh clamoring for sinful expression. Ellen describes it in the following passage:

Quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

She makes it clear that sinful flesh clamors for sinful expression, that it tempts us from within to indulge sin, and that we must resist cherishing them in thought or acting upon them in word or deed. Jesus had to do the same thing for the same reasons. Do you agree?

Originally Posted By: asygo
M: How do you interpret and apply the "sin that dwelleth in me" and the "motions of sins"? See Romans 7:5, 17, 20.

A: Those are the manifestations of the evil in my heart. They are also called "inbred sin" and "natural selfishness" in the SOP. Jesus didn't have those either.

Both "inbred sin" and "natural selfishness" are hereditary traits and tendencies and, as such, do not constitute cultivated sins, that is, sinful character. The difference between hereditary and cultivated traits and tendencies is innocence and guilt. Jesus inherited the one but never cultivated the other. Right?

Quote:
We may have the peace which passeth understanding; but it will cost us battles with the powers of darkness, struggles severe against selfishness and inbred sin. {LHU 98.5}

In the human heart there is natural selfishness and corruption, which can only be overcome by most thorough discipline and severe restraint; and even then it will require years of patient effort and earnest resistance.
{4T 496.1}

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104813
11/18/08 05:33 PM
11/18/08 05:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
"If man has in any sense a more trying conflict to endure than had Christ, then Christ is not able to succor him when tempted."

Rosangela, do think Jesus endured every form and source of temptation we do? Or, do you think He was never tempted from within in the same way and for the same reasons we are?

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
"Christ took humanity with all its liabilities."

Do you agree Jesus took humanity with "all" its liabilities? Or, do you think some were omitted? In other words, do you think He was spared having to battle in the following ways:

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him.
{MB 141.3}

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