Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? Are we required to render obedience even if we don't understand why? Is it safe to refuse to comply with God's command while we don't know His rationale for giving the command?

I'm starting this new thread to address this issue that has been touched upon in various threads. I'll copy the other posts here so they're all in one place. I'll unlock the topic when that's done.

Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4059#Post104059

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4061#Post104061

God doesn't want the obedience of automatons:


In order to have an intelligent, appreciation of His wisdom, justice and benevolence, we need to understand His ways. The idea that God would zap our memories is contrary to common sense, and, more importantly, in contrary to His character and the principles of His government.

Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4065#Post104065

God does want us to have an intelligent appreciation of His character. However, He will not let our unintelligence hinder His work. God will fulfill His purposes, even if Arnold and Tom are too dumb to understand them. There will be time enough during eternity to fill in the gaps.

Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4128#Post104128


What I mean is that we should not trust ourselves so much that we can make assertions as to what God will or will not do based on what we think is or is not common sense. As for me, my wisdom is foolishness to God.

There are certain things for which we must be able to give an answer to all who ask, especially in soteriology. But there are other things that we don't understand, but still have to take by faith. This is especially true for people who don't yet know everything God has taught in Scripture.

For example, my father does not keep the Sabbath. Why? Because he, along with the rest of his church, does not see any reason why God would require it. They believe that every day is as holy as any other. They are too proud to think that God can require their obedience before He requires their understanding.


Yes, there are secret things that are not revealed to us.

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4130#Post104130


We're not trusting in ourselves simply by trying to understand what God is communicating to us. If we read something, and it doesn't make sense to us, we have the duty to question it, and not simply accept it. God isn't looking for unthinking obedience, but trusting faith, based on an intelligent appreciation of His character.


I think I agree with your father, if I'm understand what you're saying correctly. That is, God doesn't require obedience before requiring understanding. What good would that do? Someone should be able to explain to your Father why God would have us remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy in a way that he can understand. Now if he refuses to listen, that's a different issue. But if he sees no reason to do something that he doesn't understand, I think he's right.


I don't know what the "yes" is in response to. Is it an answer to a question? Or just as affirmation?

Certainly there are secret things, but I take this as referring to items of speculation, like for example things about the afterlife which haven't been revealed. I don't see this as referring to anything that would require obedience on our part. Did you have something like this in mind?

Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4132#Post104132


That's an entirely different story from "I won't accept it because I don't understand it." Question it and try to make sense of it, no problem. Reject it if you don't get an answer that is acceptable to you, that's a problem.

Anyway, why do you require things of God that you don't require of physicists? You will accept Heisenberg's assertions without understanding why it is that way, and just accept that "that's just the way it is" but you can't accept God's assertions unless He explains it to your satisfaction.


Have you done an in-depth study of child training principles? Check out this passage:

My father doesn't agree with my principles of child training either.

Obedience should come before reason. When the child is capable of understanding, then reason should be enlisted on the side of obedience, obedience that is already there. To wait for understanding before teaching obedience is to give Satan a huge head start, because he doesn't mind unreasonable obedience to his commands.


Have you ever compared the disposition of a child who has been trained to regard his parents' word as law, to a child who has been trained to regard his parents' word as suggestions that he can choose to follow as he saw fit? One grows up feeling safe in the care of his parents, while the other one grows up in a constant state of stress because he is being cared for by the incompetent child in the mirror.


There's a long story that goes along with that. But to give you a hint at what's going on, he had a business associate to whom he gave clear directions. This person refused to do what he was told unless my father explained to him why he wanted it done. His words were, "I can easily do it, but first I want to know why I should do it." Did I say my father HAD a business associate?

But he sees no problem in disrespecting God in the same way.


I don't see any such restrictions in the verse. Before reason comes, we can be taught to obey. Even if reason never comes, we can still be taught to obey.

Anyway, if God wanted you to forget stuff, He won't need your obedience. It's not like you can choose to forget.

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4137#Post104137



I would say neither reject it nor accept it, but keep thinking about it and studying the matter until it makes sense to you.



With God the question of understanding is relevant for a number of reasons. I'll mention two. One is the issues are moral; physics isn't. Two is God desires that His creatures render Him homage because they judge Him worthy of such. He doesn't wish to be honored because of His power or authority, but because of His character. We cannot love God as He desires to be loved (which is loving Him in truth) without understanding His character.



We're not discussing children but adults. To "obey" God without understanding what one is doing is robotic. This isn't what God desires.



This seems reasonable. If we made this request of God, He would explain why. That is, God will give us sufficient evidence as to why we should do what He asks us to do. He won't satisfy every possible question that could come up (not remove all hooks upon which we could hang our doubts, to use EGW's language) because He desires that we act on the basis of free will, and overwhelming someone with evidence would detract from that principles. But providing enough evidence so that a person open to do His will is able to do so is certainly something God does.



I'm not seeing the disrespect here (although I'm sure there's more going on here than what I'm aware of, so I'm not saying you're misjudging the situation, just that based on what you've said so far, I don't see the disrespect you are speaking of).



How is this not robotic?



To "obey" by doing things that have no basis in our reasoning would be the "slavish obedience" that God takes no pleasure in, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4138#Post104138

1) Which is bigger, the "distance" between children and their parents, or adults and God?

2) Have you ever raised godly children?

3) Did you know that EGW said parents are to be as God to their children?

4) Do you think it is right to worship God simply because He created us?

5) Since you admitted that you don't understand God's character that well, are you then saying that you don't worship or love God that well?

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4140#Post104140

I'm interested in your answer to this question:




1)This isn't a relevant question. The distance between God and adult vs. adult and child isn't the salient feature, but honoring God because we have an intelligent appreciation of His character. A child is limited in its ability to do so, because of a lack of intelligence/reasoning ability etc. This fact remains regardless of how distant an adult is compared to God.

3)Yes.

4)No. God could have been an evil Creator. We should worship God because we are convinced He is worthy of worship.

5)I wouldn't say I "admitted" this, as "admit" makes it sound like I was reticent to say so, which I'm not. I simply stated it.

Why are you asking if I'm saying I don't worship or love God that well? I'm not seeing the relevance in this question. Please answer this.

The answer to your question is no, that's not what I'm saying, but I don't disagree with your conclusion.