Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4159#Post104159


Not necessarily. That quote corresponds to Ed 287.2. But it is rare if we do not pass through the experience of Ed 287.1 first.

If God intended to leave us at Ed 287.1, that would be slavish obedience. But to pass through Ed 287.1 on the way to Ed 287.2 is trust.

Now, what about #2? That's very important, since we are talking about how our Father deals with us.

Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4160#Post104160

One more to add:

6) Have you ever been in charge of a group of people in a dangerous situation, and been responsible for getting them through alive?

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4171#Post104171



So you're saying before we can obey God in a reasonable way (i.e, using reason) it is first necessary that we obey Him in a way He does not desire, the "slavish obedience" that EGW speaks of?

Regarding 2, that's a personal question. Regarding 5, you haven't answer my question regarding why you are asking this. Regarding 6, I have the same question. I don't see why you're asking these personal questions.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4197#Post104197

Tom, God required A&E to trust and obey Him before they were familiar with His character. Did that make Him a slave driver?

PS - I have asked you on several occasions if you have children and you have refused every time to answer. I take it the answer is - No. It is significant that you have never raised children, especially as it applies to your opinion about raising children.

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4205#Post104205



What makes you think they were unfamiliar with His character? They walked face to face with God every day!



This is a personal question. Arnold's asking me the same question. Boy you guys are nosy!

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4225#Post104225

God expected them to obey His law from the first day they were created. They weren't created with a knowledge of His character. On that first day of their lives they were unfamiliar with His character. Nevertheless, God required them to obey His law. There was nothing wrong with God requiring them to obey His law before they were familiar with His character.

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4239#Post104239



God warned them not to eat of the forbidden fruit because if they did something bad would happen to them (they would die). The serpent got them to eat of the forbidden fruit by misrepresenting God's character. This didn't happen the first day they were created. We don't know how long they walked daily with God in the garden, but they had had time to become acquainted with Him. Besides, they would would have been created in harmony with God and His principles; they were created in His image, so His character was inwrought in their very being.

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4583#Post104583

God desires that we have an intelligent appreciation of His character, and that we obey Him because we are convinced that His principles are right. Not because He says so, but because we ourselves believe His ways are right and true. He doesn't desire the obedience of a robot, where He says, "do this," and the robot does it.



Certainly this is important, but not for reasons of authority. It's not like the Army, where someone who is in command says something, and the underling does it because he is outranked.



This is because His ways are right and true. The principles He espouses are the principles of self-sacrificing love, which are the principles of life.

Originally Posted By: asygo
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4596#Post104596


I disagree with you here, and we'll discuss it more in the other thread where we started it (if I can find it again). You are treating God as your equal, as if you could stand in judgment of His words and decide for yourself if you should or should not follow. He gave 10 Commandments, not 10 Explanations.

When I deal with my kids, I want them to obey because they see the wisdom in my commands. But that sometimes requires more maturity than they currently have. In the meantime, I want them to obey what I said, even if they don't understand why I said it. If they don't, they might not survive long enough to gain the needed maturity. So I want them to trust that I want what's best for them, and I know what I'm doing, even if they don't.

That's how it is with God. If I was as wise as Him, maybe the two of us can sit around and dissect His commands and decide if I concur. But I'm not. So, I obey, with a child-like trust that He wants what's best for me, and He knows what He's doing, even if I don't.


If you don't understand the rationale for one of God's commands, or maybe even don't know that God commanded it, do you think there will be negative consequences for doing the opposite of God's will?


Are these principles still in effect if I don't understand why? IOW, is going against God's will inherently hurtful?

Originally Posted By: Tom
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...4627#Post104627



Yes, we seem to disagree here. First of all, I am not treating God as my equal; I perceive Him to be as you do. I am guessing for you to say this that you perceive desiring to understand why a certain thing is desired is equivalent to treating someone else as equal(?) That is, I'm a bit perplexed as to why you would think I'm treating God as an equal because I assert that He doesn't desire robotic obedience.

I understand with a young child that you give a command ("Don't cross the street without me!") because they don't understand the danger involved, but I can't think of a counterpart in our case. We are not children, but have reached the age of accountability. What would be an example of something God wants us to do without understanding why?



I think this question is based on a false premise, which is that it's possible to do God's will without understanding the why involved. I don't think it's God's will that He says, "Jump!" and we say, "How high?" That's the Army. God's kingdom is moral. It's not based of God's authority, but on His character. It's not run by the principles of force, but on the basis of love, and love must be freely given, and must be based on understanding.



If God's will is that you understand His principles, it's not possible to do His will without understanding why. Or, to put it another way, a fundamental part of His principles is that the why be understood.