teresaq, how would the scenario you're suggesting tie into the EGW statement that the wicked will suffer proportionately to their sin?

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds."(GC 673)

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God.

The glory of God is His character. While Moses was in the mount, earnestly interceding with God, he prayed, "I beseech thee, show me thy glory." In answer God declared, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: "The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 33:18, 19; 34:6, 7).

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543)

May God open your eyes,

Green Cochoa.

There is a power that can destroy both soul and body. "I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear," Christ said. "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." The Ruler of the universe bears long with the perversity of men; but he keeps a record of their works, and in proportion as they have caused pain to others, they will themselves be punished. John writes, "I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she hath said in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." {RH, June 19, 1900 par. 4}

God will uphold His law, for it is a part of His character. The law, in and of itself, knows no mercy. It is not flexible. It is unchanging, just like God. It was this very inflexibility that demanded death as a punishment for every sinner, and for which Christ died as a substitute for us. I know that Tom is not a believer in this, and has views contrary to the Bible in this regard.

Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. (DA 21)

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God (ST 1/20/90; Emphasis mine).

This looks to be saying that God is inflexible, which you are correct in asserting that I disagree with this. I don't think the problem involves God at all, nor His law.

I see the problem as described here:



This describes the real problem. It can be described in legal language, or non-legal language. I think it's easier to understand in non-legal language.

Here's the solution:



Since the problem is due to Satan's deceptions involving a misrepresentation of God's character, it stands to reason that the solution would be a revelation of the truth regarding God's character. And indeed, we read that that "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was to "set men right" by means of "the revelation of God."

So there it is in a nutshell. Since the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God, it follows that everything that He did was for this purpose. It seems to me looking at things this way makes things very easy to understand.

Satan desired power, so to achieve his goal he misrepresented God's character. In so doing, he deceived men (and angels). In order to win men back, the truth must be revealed. So Christ did this. He revealed God to be compassionate, flexible, patient, merciful, gentle, kind, interested in others, polite, careful, to name a few things. Humble, serving others should be added.

He was not at all like how the religious people of the time represented Him, nor like the religious people themselves. Unfortunately, the same comments apply today, and it is a sad fact that the absolute worst presentations of God's character come from religious people.

Let's consider one act; Christ's washing His disciples' feet. Taking into account Christ's claim: "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father," what does this tell us about God?

It tells us that God is amazingly humble, One who serves those who are below Him. Christ came "to serve" and "not to be served."

If someone asked, "Are you a servant of God, or is God your servant?" many would recoil in horror at the thought that God is our servant, and would cry out, "I am God's servant, of course!" But a true servant is one who carries out the desires of his master, and we are so poor at doing this that it seems shameful or presumptuous of us to make this claim. On the other hand, that God is our servant cannot be denied. After all, this is exactly what Christ said! "I came not to be served, but to serve." When we combine this with "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father," we come to the amazing conclusion that God, the creator of all things, the Master of the Universe, the King and King and Lord of Lords, is a Servant, even to the point of washing feet, a deed which was thought to be beneath the dignity of anyone but a lowly servant to perform.

This is just one episode to consider; they're are many, many more. It seems to me to be a rare thing that one considers the acts and teachings of Jesus Christ to be an actual representation of God's character. Rather than being seen as Christ presented Him, He is often seen along the lines that the enemy has presented Him, as one who is unforgiving, severe, harsh, inflexible, just waiting to punish those who act contrary to His wishes.

God could care less that we acted according to His wishes as far as His own person is concerned. God is completely selfless. His desire is 100% for the well-being of His creatures; this is the nature of agape. God desires what He desires because He is good, and His goodness "requires" that His creatures to that which is for their happiness and well-being, which is to do good and not evil; not because this is an arbitrary requirement of some law, but because self-sacrificing love is the only way to happiness and well-being.

God will not entrust the care of His precious flock to men whose mind and judgment have been weakened by former errors that they have cherished, such as so-called perfectionism [SEE APPENDIX.] and Spiritualism, and who, by their course while in these errors, have disgraced themselves and brought reproach upon the cause of truth. Although they may now feel free from error and competent to go forth and to teach this last message, God will not accept them. He will not entrust precious souls to their care; for their judgment was perverted while in error, and is now weakened. The great and holy One is a jealous God, and He will have holy men to carry His truth. The holy law spoken by God from Sinai [is] a part of Himself, and holy men who are its strict observers will alone honor Him by teaching it to others. {EW 101.2} [Early Writings (1882)]

From the creation the moral law was an essential part of God's divine plan, and was as unchangeable as Himself. The ceremonial law was to answer a particular purpose in Christ's plan for the salvation of the race. The typical system of sacrifices and offerings was established that through these services the sinner might discern the great offering, Christ. . . . The ceremonial law was glorious; it was the provision made by Jesus Christ in counsel with His Father, to aid in the salvation of the race. The whole arrangement of the typical system was founded on Christ. Adam saw Christ prefigured in the innocent beast suffering the penalty of his transgression of Jehovah's law. {FLB 106.3}
[The Faith I Live By (1958)]

Are you saying that you believe God's law is flexible?

It is not flexible. It is unchanging, just like God. It was this very inflexibility that demanded death as a punishment for every sinner...

Perhaps you and I will need to "agree to disagree." I could hardly disagree more, for I disagree both with your reasoning, and with the attitude it conveys. The last paragraph of yours here actually shocks me. That you could so flippantly refer to God's law using words like those! "...an arbitrary requirement of some law."

It all comes back to a proper understanding of the covenants, the central theme for this thread. I suppose you will interpret this differently, Tom, for you have many times tried to express the view that God was NOT revealed properly in the Old Testament, but only through the incarnation of Christ.

However, as you well know, Mike and I disagree with this at its core.

I would, however, hope that you can see whereupon we base our understanding through ample support in the Bible and Mrs. White.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)

Belief in the propitiation for sin enables fallen man to love God with his whole heart and his neighbor as himself. (COL 378)