Apparently Whidden feels Zurcher does not believe Jesus inherited the same "evil tendencies" we inherit. Did Whidden misunderstand Zurcher?

I believe Jesus inherited the same sinful flesh we inherit. Like born again believers, Jesus had to resist its unholy clamorings. He had to rein in His appetites and passions, to keep them under the control of a sanctified will and mind, for the same reasons we do. He was truly tempted like we are. Yet none of this contaminated His character. He was free from sin.

I think the quote you referenced is Zurcher, not Whidden. That is, Whidden was quoting from Zurcher's book, and what was quoted was Zurcher's words, not Whidden's.

"Evil tendencies," spoken without context, would naturally be taken to mean tendencies that one had developed through the course of one's own sin. Zurcher was denying that Christ had this. The point I was making was even this strong phrase was applied by Ellen White to Christ, in terms of the nature which Christ assumed.

Tom, do you think any one of the following passages teach, as you do, that people are born again with certain sinful habits and practices in tact? If not, what do you think she saying in each of these passages about the state of people after they are born again? Please use the words and phrases she uses in these passages to explain what you think she is saying. Of course you can import other quotes but please do so in attempt to allow her to explain herself (without you having to extrapolate). Thank you.

MM, I've not asserted what you are saying I've asserted. Please quote something I've actually said, and we can discuss that.

Regarding what I believe, I believe that Christians, not just in "the Dark Ages," such as when Luther, William Miller, Spurgeon, and Ellen White lived, but in all times, have been converted with sins of ignorance. I don't believe that sins of ignorance are limited to the first 4 commandments. I don't believe that properly indoctrinated SDA's, when born again, never sin again, nor that they must stop abiding in Jesus to commit sins of ignorance.

Regarding the SOP quotations, I believe that her counsel should be followed in regards to interpreting her writings on a subject with what she has written elsewhere on the subject. In "The Desire of Ages," she explains what conversion looks like; the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross, and surrender to Jesus Christ, responding to the wooings of the Holy Spirit. This is conversion, not a long, protracted process of confessing sinful habits one by one until the last one is reached.

I think your whole concept of what's important is off base. Jesus said, "the kingddom of God is within you." The real issues of conversion have to do with the heart. Confessing a long list of sinful habits one by one smacks much more of a work of the flesh than "heart work," as EGW speaks of.

Sure you have. You even named several sinful habits and practices as proof of your theory. For example, you've named polygamy, self-pity, smoking, drinking, Sabbath-breaking, believing in eternal torment in hell, and other perverted views of God.


Here again you are confirming what I said above. Do you believe during apostolic times that people were converted and baptized and received into the church while ignorantly breaking the Sabbath or anything else Jesus commanded?


Do you know of anyone who believes properly indoctrinated SDAs "never sin again" after they experience the miracle of rebirth? Also, do you know of anyone who believes a person who is born again ignorantly practicing a preconversion sinful habit is not abiding in Jesus? Again, this assumes you agree with what I said above about your view.


Most people have probably fewer than twenty sinful habits and practices they would need to confess and crucify in order to experience a complete rebirth. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


You should have no problem agreeing with the point she is making in the quotes I posted. Here they are again:


"Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion."

What is there not to agree with? Are you suggesting she has written something elsewhere which would make us interpret this insight to mean something other than what it obviously says? Do you think she intended for us to interpret it to mean:

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency which the Holy Spirit was able to reveal to them before they were born again. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion which the Holy Spirit was able to reveal to them before they were born again.

No, MM, I've never asserted what you're suggesting. I've cited counter-examples to disprove your ideas.



No, it's not the same.



They weren't breaking the Sabbath, of course. I'm not sure what you have in mind by "anything else Jesus commanded." I think they were converted while committing sins of ignorance.



You, provided they are "abiding in Jesus."



Try that question again please.



I think you're off on your estimate by many orders of magnitude.



That she is talking about sins of ignorance.



No, I'm suggesting what you think "it obviously says" is not what she meant, and that what she meant in terms of what's involved in conversion was clearly stated in places like the following:



Why don't these word mean what they obviously say?

Also, what of Spurgeon, Luther, Ellen White, and William Miller? Were these not born again, even though they were smoking, drinking, or breaking the Sabbath?

Tom, by not simply stating what you do believe you are unnecessarily dragging this out. We’ve gone back and forth twice now and you still haven’t explained what you believe about it. Nothing is accomplished by merely disagreeing with my understanding of your view. “The way to dispel darkness is to admit light.” Do you, or do you not, believe people are born again ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth? Please state your position clearly, in your own words, so that even a child can grasp it. No quotes. Just use your own words. Thank you.


Here again you have failed to post a useful and productive response. Please explain why you did not mean what your words mean. “I believe that Christians . . . in all times have been converted with sins of ignorance.” The obvious meaning of these words clearly say you believe people are born again ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth. Why do you disagree?


I have in mind the gospel commission. Jesus said, “Teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and then baptize them.” Do you think if a person learns how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded that they would still ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth?


No way, buddy, you’ve got it all wrong. I’ve never said anything any remotely close to what you are accusing me of. I could leave it at that, but it would only drag out this discussion longer than necessary. So, I’ll state my position clearly here and now.

I believe people who are taught to obey and observe “all things whatsoever Jesus commanded” are no longer ignorant concerning the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth, nor are they ignorant of any sin. There are wise to all sin and wise unto all righteousness. While they are abiding in Jesus, which means they are also walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man and partaking of the divine nature, in this state they cannot and do not sin. Instead, while in this state, they are growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day.

Nevertheless, I also believe no one has ever successfully remained in this state from rebirth to the day they died. Not that it is impossible do so, for indeed it is very possible. However, everyone fails to stay connected to Jesus, to remain in the state described above. While thus disconnected from Jesus, the only source of success, all they can do is sin. There is no neutral place where people who are disconnected from Jesus do not sin. We are either all of His and free of sin or we are none of His and full of sin. Receiving and exercising the gift of repentance restores the relationship sin severed. Jesus restores them to that state which enables them to resume where they left off maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.


I believe people can and do experience rebirth before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. In such cases they are born again abiding in Jesus while at the same time ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth. Do you know of anyone who believes otherwise, who believe people cannot abide in Jesus while ignorantly sinning?


In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul only listed 17 sinful practices, and the first 4 can be lumped under the same heading, namely, “intemperance”. In 4T 385 Ellen listed 4 headings under which she listed several “lesser sins”. Listen as Paul and Ellen describe it:


At one point you and I were in agreement that people confess “representative sins” rather than the thousands of sins that resulted in the cultivation of the “representative sins”. Have you changed your mind? Or, do you agree that confessing “representative sins” is equivalent to confessing the thousands of sins that gave birth to and built up “representative sins”?


I take it you believe she intended for us to interpret her words to mean certain sinful habits are excluded, that she obviously omits them, that elsewhere she plainly says people are born again practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated before rebirth, and that DA 175 is just such a quote.

I also take it you agree with the following paraphrase of the quote I posted (in the box above): Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency which the Holy Spirit was able to reveal to them before they were born again. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion which the Holy Spirit was able to reveal to them before they were born again.

First of all, let me reassure you of something I wrote above (on this thread). Here it is again: “I believe people can and do experience rebirth before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. In such cases they are born again abiding in Jesus while at the same time ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth.” Please bear this in mind at all times. Thank you.

Now, here is what Ellen said in the quote you posted above: “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.” We both agree with the when-then, before-after chronological sequence she describes here, that is, we both agree people first confess their sins and then they experience rebirth.

But here is the problem as I see it. I believe the phrase “the sins that have crucified the Saviour” is all encompassing, whereas you believe it obviously omits and excludes a long list of sinful habits. Which, of course, means I am assuming she is describing someone who was taught how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded and then experienced rebirth, whereas you are assuming they were taught how to obey and observe some of the things Jesus commanded and then they experienced rebirth while still ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth.

However, this quote does not support either view. It does not say way one or the other. So, we are forced to gather up other statements on the topic in order to arrive at a conclusion. Here is one such quote which I believe supports my view:

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1} End Quote.

And, here’s another one:

The old sinful life is dead; the new life entered into with Christ by the pledge of baptism. Practise the virtues of the Saviour's character. Let His wisdom dwell in you richly in all wisdom; "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." . . . The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3} End Quote.

And here are several more:

Provision has been made whereby every soul that is struggling under sinful practices may be made free from sin. “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) The Christian is not to retain his sinful habits and cherish his defects of character, but he is to be renewed in the spirit of his mind after the divine similitude. Whatever may be the nature of your defects, the Spirit of the Lord will enable you to discern them, and grace will be given you whereby they may be overcome. Through the merits of the blood of Christ you may be a conqueror, yes, more than a conqueror. (TMK 237)

You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. "I and the Father are one." He was in the express image of the Father's person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ. {1SAT 247.2}

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. (TMK 247)

Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man. (TDG 48)

MM, I've stated many times what I believe. Just two posts ago I wrote this:



You quoted, "the way to dismiss darkness is to admit light" that's it not enough simply to disagree with your view. I'm not just disagreeing with your view in the above, but explaining how I believe conversion works. Basically I believe what happens is the Holy Spirit waits until a good time, and then presents Christ to the prospective believer. Christ crucified is the means by which God makes His appeal to the soul. If there is some sin or sins that would prevent a person from surrendering to Christ, the Holy Spirit makes that known. The presentation of sins to confess is a means to an end, not the end itself. The end is Christ, not the confession of sins.



I don't perceive "sin of ignorance" as being synonymous with the practice of a sinful habit. For example, say a person has a wrong view of God's character, and shares that view with others, thus misrepresenting God's character. Assuming the person isn't willfully doing this, I would call this a sin of ignorance, as opposed to practicing a sinful habit. Also practicing a sinful habit is a phrase I would be more inclined to use for volitional behavior, and I think the SOP agrees with this. So when she speaks of a converted person not practicing any sinful habits, she is not speaking of sins of ignorance (such as Miller and herself and the Sabbath, or Luther and drinking, or Spurgeon and smoking) but of known sin.



I think believers in all generations have been converted with sins of ignorance.



It looks to me, from your response, that you agreed with what I said. You believe if a person is abiding in Jesus, and properly indoctrinated, they don't sin. In other words, the only way a properly indoctrinated person can sin is if they are not abiding in Jesus. This is because they cannot commit any sins of ignorance.



Just you, provided the person is properly indoctrinated.



The representative sins idea came from Waggoner. If you agree with what Waggoner said, then we are in agreement. I haven't changed my mind; I still agree with Waggoner.



No, I don't think any sinful habits are excluded. I think sinful habits refers to habits that are willfully practiced, all of which are removed when confessed.



When you say "people" here, you mean people who haven't been properly indoctrinated, right?



What she wrote was written for people who were not properly indoctrinated, for one thing. For another, I don't see the issue the same way you do. We just look at the whole thing differently. You see that conversion has to do with confessing certain types of behavior. I see that it has to do with accepting Christ. You see that the "all things which Christ commanded" encompasses any possible sin of ignorance (I'm inferring this from what you wrote; you didn't explicitly say this I don't think, but it seems clear this is what you believe). I think the "all things which Christ commanded" is referring to Christ's teachings, which I think involve principles which take time for people to learn and assimilate. A person could be ignorantly misrepresenting God's character, for example, in which case he wouldn't be observing the "all things" which Christ commanded. In order for a person to be properly indoctrinated, the person doing the indoctrination would himself need to be correctly understanding and presenting God's character.

Regarding the quotes you cited, aren't these all dealing with known sins? If not, how do you explain Ellen White herself, or Spurgeon, or Luther, or Miller?

Here’s what I hear you saying: Everyone, including people who have learned how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, are born again ignorantly and occasionally knowingly breaking one or more of the Ten Commandments while abiding in Jesus.


Here’s what I hear you saying: The SOP must be interpreted to mean everyone experiences rebirth the instant they embrace Jesus, not after a long, protracted process of confessing their sinful habits one by one until the last sinful habit is confessed. Some sinful habits are confessed and crucified when they embrace Jesus, but the rest are not confessed and crucified until some time afterward.


Here’s what I hear you saying: Everyone is born again ignorantly committing sins of ignorance, but no one is born again ignorantly practicing the sinful habits they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth. Sins of ignorance are thoughts, words, and deeds people cultivate having absolutely no idea they are sinful; whereas, sinful habits are thoughts, words, and deeds people cultivate knowing perfectly well they are sinful.


Do you mean to say, no, they will not ignorantly practice sinful habits, but, yes, they will ignorantly commit certain sins of ignorance? If so, please name some sins that are overlooked when people learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. And, where might they turn to learn about the sins they didn’t learn about after studying everything Jesus commanded? Where did Jesus direct His disciples when Peter inquired, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life”?


Correct. I take it you disagree.


Given your definitions of “sins of ignorance” versus “sinful habits” (explained above in this post) let me restate my explanation and question above:

I believe people can and do experience rebirth before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. In such cases they are born again abiding in Jesus while still cultivating some of the same sins of ignorance they committed prior to rebirth. Do you know of anyone who believes people cannot abide in Jesus under these circumstances?


I am using the term “representative sins”, in the same way Ellen used “headings”. So, do you agree with my application of his term? That is, do you agree most people have fewer than 20 “representative sins” they would need to confess and crucify to experience a full and complete rebirth (meaning they would have no “representative sins” left to confess and crucify later on)?


I agree. I like the way you are distinguishing between “sins of ignorance” and “sinful habits”. I suppose we still differ greatly as to what constitutes a “sinful habit”.


Right. I mean people who have not learned how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. Also, I would swap “sinful habits” with “sins of ignorance” in keeping with your definitions.


I agree with how you described our differences with one exception. You wrote, “You see that conversion has to do with confessing certain types of behavior. I see that it has to do with accepting Christ.” I believe both happen when people are properly indoctrinated.


No, they don’t overlook sins of ignorance. Let’s look at it from a different perspective. Do you know of any inspired quotes that describe someone who, like Jesus, is sin free, who successfully reigns in the clamorings of their sinful flesh, and who daily grows in grace and matures in the righteous fruits and attributes of God character? If you do, please post them here so we can discuss them. Thank you.

Here's what I hear you saying in regards to "everything Jesus commanded." I think you think that means the same thing as the phrase you have used previously, which is to be "properly indoctrinated," which would be to be presented the doctrines and teachings of the SDA church. Personally I don't think that's what "everything Jesus commanded" means, so I'm going to change this to "properly indoctrinated," which I think means the same thing to you (and, of course, you may please correct me if I've misunderstood you).

The way I would put it is that everyone, including those who have been properly indoctrinated, is converted with sins of ignorance of which they must be educated by the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't say the "occasionally" break one or more of the 10 Commandments, because to me that doesn't sound like a sin of ignorance, but some sin that sometimes one does and sometimes one doesn't.



I think I would say, "The SOP teaches that ..." and then the rest of it (as opposed to "must be interpreted to mean," which gives a different impression). The rest I agree with.



I would put it this way. The Holy Spirit, at the time of conversion, reveals certain sins which would get in the way of receiving Christ. The main goal is to receive Christ, because it is by receiving Christ that one receives eternal life, because He is the life.

When one is converted, one asks the Lord, "What is Your will?" and the Lord reveals things as one is able to understand them and deal with them. He doesn't dump everything upon us at once, because that would be overwhelming. Our unChristlikeness is revealed bit by bit.

Ellen White said:



This was many years after she had been born again.



What do you think it was that made EGW mourn her unlikeness to Christ's dear image? We could use that as an example.



Yes, I disagree. For example, I think people you would consider to be properly indoctrinated can have misunderstandings in relation to God's character, and misrepresent Him.



By people, you mean "people who have not been properly indoctrinated," correct? If "people" means "people who have been properly indoctrinated," then I would know of one person who believes people cannot abide in Jesus under these circumstances, which would be you, of course. With the exception, I no of no one, although I wouldn't say "cultivating" these sins of ignorance, but simply "committing" them.



Regarding "headings" and "representative sins," I think these are related by different concepts. Regarding your last question here, I mostly agree. I agree that they would have less than 20 representative sins to deal with, but disagree with your wording, which seems to imply that it is because they confess and crucify these sins that they experience rebirth. I disagree with this idea. Rebirth comes as a result of receiving Christ. The need to confess these sins as a part of the conversion process is if these sins are getting in the way of receiving Christ.



Great! I'm glad you like this distinction. It's a challenge to be precise here. Regarding if we would differ greatly on what constitutes a "sinful habit," I'm not sure. I see more differences in terms of what conversion is, how one experiences it, and in regards to sins of ignorance (i.e., your belief that sins of ignorance do not include any sins from the second half of the law, or that properly indoctrinated folks don't have any sins of ignorance at all).



The accepting Christ part seems not to be important to you, based on what you've written. What I mean by this is while you speak of the importance of confessing sin, I don't recall you're ever mentioning the need to accept Christ. If you have mentioned it, it's rare that you do so.

Do you see that one can only accept Christ after the last sinful habit has been confessed? Or does one accept Christ first, start confessing sinful habits, get to the last one, and then one is born again? I guess what I'm getting at here is if you view "accepting Christ" as happening when one is born again, or even as the same thing.



If the quotes don't exclude sins of ignorance, then Spurgeon, Luther, Miller and Ellen White weren't converted, because the quotes were dealing with being converted. Regarding if I know of any inspired quotes that describe people who are sin free, like Jesus, no, I don't know any quotes like this. Indeed, my understanding of inspiration is that only Jesus is sin free.