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Re: Lesson #6 - Atonement in SYMBOLS: Part 1
[Re: Rosangela]
#105254
11/27/08 07:12 PM
11/27/08 07:12 PM
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There are some choices that are final, because of the measure of light the person has had. There is no reason to suppose that things would work differently for them than for the hundreds of people of whom we do have a registry. Ellen White explains the principle: We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1SM 235.2} There is no registry that these people had been sinning defiantly before. This is hardly support for the idea that the principles Ellen White laid out in 1SM 235 should not be considered! Let's consider being who acted similarly of whom there is a record. Judas is such a one. He had even greater light than Ananias and Sapphira, having walked for several years with the Light Himself. Judas, even before knowing Christ, had the same ill traits of character that he demonstrated afterwords. He rejected every effort of Christ to save him, and the principles of 1SM 235 played themselves out, until Judas betrayed Christ and killed himself. If we had a record of the life of Ananias and Sapphira, I'm sure we would find that their covetous was nothing new, nor their rejection of the wooing of the Holy Spirit. God is not willing that any of His creatures should perish. He does all He can to save them. It's not easy to be lost: Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way. All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments, there are warnings not to go on. God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves.(MB 139) Regarding Lucifer's fall, we have a lot of information. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:12-15.
Lucifer might have remained in favor with God, beloved and honored by all the angelic host, exercising his noble powers to bless others and to glorify his Maker. But, says the prophet, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Verse 17. Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge a desire for self-exaltation. "Thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God." "Thou hast said, . . . I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation....I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High." Verse 6; Isaiah 14:13, 14. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of His creatures, it was Lucifer's endeavor to win their service and homage to himself. And coveting the honor which the infinite Father had bestowed upon His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power which it was the prerogative of Christ alone to wield.(GC 494) This brings out that Lucifer was perfect until iniquity was found in him. This is a long time before he had fully made up his mind to rebel no matter what. Notice it is written that what happened to Lucifer happened "little by little." So what we have is the following a.Lucifer indulged a spirit of self-exaltation b.Lucifer sought to win the homage of God's creatures for himself, instead of leading them to honor God, which was his duty. c.Lucifer aspired to the power that was Christ's prerogative alone. So we see Lucifer slipping into a pit of his own making, little by little. Continuing on we read: Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint. Since their natures were holy, he urged that the angels should obey the dictates of their own will. He sought to create sympathy for himself by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. He claimed that in aspiring to greater power and honor he was not aiming at self-exaltation, but was seeking to secure liberty for all the inhabitants of heaven, that by this means they might attain to a higher state of existence. (GC 495) Here we see the same desire for self-exaltation, the same purpose of winning the homage of God's creatures. We see that he used deception to attain his purposes. Then we read this comment: God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. (GC 495,496) This continues to bring out that Lucifer's fall was a gradual one. It was something which happened "little by little." We see that God "bore long" with Lucifer, that "long was he retained in heaven." Now, of course, there must come some point where a person goes from the point of being able to repent and return to God and no longer being able to do so. Eventually the hardening of the heart reaches the point to where it's no longer possible to response to the wooings of the Holy Spirit. Lucifer gradually, eventually, after a long time, reached this point. This was not a case of Lucifer doing one thing wrong, one rebellious or defiant act, and that was that. The evidence in no way supports this idea. Instead what we see is that Lucifer persisted in the same course of action, his rebellion, and that this rebellion continued to bloom until it reached full flower. That Lucifer was acting defiantly before his final defiant act is clearly seen: The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker, and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed jealousy of Christ to prevail, and he became the more determined. (GC 494, 495; emphasis mine) The underlined portion underscored Lucifer's defiance. Lucifer was told exactly what he was doing, and what the consequences of his actions would be. Yet he "allowed jealousy" to prevail, and became more determined, or defiant. Continuing on: As songs of praise ascended in melodious strains, swelled by thousands of glad voices, the spirit of evil seemed vanquished; unutterable love thrilled his entire being; his soul went out, in harmony with the sinless worshippers, in love to the Father and the Son. But again he was filled with pride in his own glory. His desire for supremacy returned, and envy of Christ was once more indulged. (PP 37; parallel to GC 495) Another defiant act. Continuing: "Why," questioned this mighty angel, "should Christ have the supremacy? Why is He honored above Lucifer?"
Leaving his place in the immediate presence of the Father, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. He worked with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealed his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God. (PP 37, GC 495) Finally we come to the quote mentioned above, which points out that God long bore with Lucifer, and was offered pardon again and again. Looking at the overall picture Ellen White portrays, we see that Lucifer fell little by little, that he was warned not to continue on, that he was told what would happen if he did, and that he continued to indulge the same spirit of self-exaltation and jealousy. We see there was an actual fight within himself to yield to the wooings of the Holy Spirit, and that He chose not to respond. This is a classic example of the unpardonable sin! The angels joyfully acknowledged the supremacy of Christ, and prostrating themselves before Him, poured out their love and adoration. Lucifer bowed with them, but in his heart there was a strange, fierce conflict. Truth, justice, and loyalty were struggling against envy and jealousy.(PP 36, 37) This is just a little before the statement above that unutterable love thrilled his soul. Here's a similar account in regards to Judas: Before the Passover Judas had met a second time with the priests and scribes, and had closed the contract to deliver Jesus into their hands. Yet he afterward mingled with the disciples as though innocent of any wrong, and interested in the work of preparing for the feast. The disciples knew nothing of the purpose of Judas. Jesus alone could read his secret. Yet He did not expose him. Jesus hungered for his soul. He felt for him such a burden as for Jerusalem when He wept over the doomed city. His heart was crying, How can I give thee up? The constraining power of that love was felt by Judas. When the Saviour's hands were bathing those soiled feet, and wiping them with the towel, the heart of Judas thrilled through and through with the impulse then and there to confess his sin. But he would not humble himself. He hardened his heart against repentance; and the old impulses, for the moment put aside, again controlled him. (DA 645) We see the same principles at work. The tender love of God. "How can I give thee up." We see that constraining love was felt by both Judas and Lucifer. We see the heart and soul of both thrilling to that love. We see a struggle in both, that both felt a strong desire to confess their sin. And we see that both refused to humble themselves. In both Judas and Lucifer the fall was a long, gradual one, eventually reaching the point to where it was no longer possible for them to return. In conclusion, we see the same principles at work in Lucifer's fall as what EGW laid out in 1SM 235. Lucifer's fall was a gradual one. Lucifer indulged a spirit of jealousy, of self-exaltation many times, and each time he did so, it made it easier for to do so again, just as 1SM 235 explains. Eventually he brought ruin upon himself, by cutting himself off from God, again just as 1SM 235 explains.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Atonement in SYMBOLS: Part 1
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105300
11/29/08 06:23 AM
11/29/08 06:23 AM
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T:Do you think the 144,000 are any less likely to sin that Lucifer was?
M:I suspect Lucifer knew God more intimately, more thoroughly than will the 144,000. The description of the 144,000 in the GC indicates some of them barely make it through Jacob's time of trouble. Does this mean no? That is, you are saying that the 144,000 are not less likely to sin than Lucifer was? What description is it that makes you think that some of the 144,000 will barely make it through? I think the 144,000 will know God better than Lucifer did. This is rather an interesting question to consider.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Atonement in SYMBOLS: Part 1
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105433
12/02/08 02:31 AM
12/02/08 02:31 AM
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Lucifer knew God perfectly for who knows how many hundreds of years. I have no doubt he knew God better than the 144,000 will know God by the time they begin experiencing JTOT. I don't think this is the case, if by knowing God better you mean closeness of fellowship. Is this what you have in mind? Or are you thinking of just knowing things about Him? He knew God so well that there was nothing else God could do to woo and win him back. Can the same thing be said of the 144,000? This seems like an apples and oranges question. For one thing, the 144,000 will not need to be wooed and won back, since they are loyal to God. I think I figured out why you included those quotes from the GC in regards to the 144,000. (It would be easier to follow your train of thought if you put some sort of explanation to go along with the quotes you provide.) I think it's in answer to my question as to why you think some of the 144,000 will just barely make it through. I don't see anything in those quotes which imply this, if I've guess correctly in regards to why you included these quotes.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Atonement in SYMBOLS: Part 1
[Re: Tom]
#105534
12/04/08 02:39 AM
12/04/08 02:39 AM
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Yes, I posted those quotes in answer to your question. Sorry I forgot to say so.
Did Lucifer, before he sinned and rebelled, need to have his "earthliness . . . consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected"? Some of the 144,000 will need it. Can it be said of Lucifer that he "never made it a habit to trust in God"? It will be said of some of the 144,000. It will also be said of some of the 144,000 that "the lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement." This was not true in Lucifer's case.
The point is - I believe Lucifer loved and served God for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years before he sinned and rebelled. During that time I am quite certain he developed a relationship and intimacy with God that will take the 144,000 hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years to duplicate. Whatever the case, it is true that not all of the 144,000 will be spiritual giants more than those who will come up in the first resurrection. Many of them will have a greater faith, a more mature faith, and a more intimate relationship with Jesus.
At any rate, my actual question has to do with when you think Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin. You seem to think it was after sinning in heaven for a long time. You wrote, "Eventually the hardening of the heart reaches the point to where it's no longer possible to response to the wooings of the Holy Spirit. Lucifer gradually, eventually, after a long time, reached this point."
Paul wrote about another way people can commit the unpardonable sin. Listen:
Hebrews 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
IOW, people can reach a point in their walk and relationship with Jesus that to sin afterward would be to commit the unpardonable sin. Surely Lucifer reached this point in heaven, which is why there was no provision to save him should he venture to sin. The same thing is true of the 144,000. They will reach a point where they cannot sin without committing the unpardonable sin. They will not require years of sinning before they become too sin hardened to repent. The same thing is true of unfallen FMAs throughout God's vast universe.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Atonement in SYMBOLS: Part 1
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105564
12/05/08 12:53 AM
12/05/08 12:53 AM
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At any rate, my actual question has to do with when you think Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin. You seem to think it was after sinning in heaven for a long time. You wrote, "Eventually the hardening of the heart reaches the point to where it's no longer possible to response to the wooings of the Holy Spirit. Lucifer gradually, eventually, after a long time, reached this point." Yes, I think it was after a long time, because EGW wrote that God bore with Lucifer a long time, offering him pardon again and again. I think what Paul is speaking about in Hebrews is exactly the same thing I'm saying. A person is not lost after one bad action, no matter how close they are to God. Moses is a perfect example of this. Ellen White pointed out that it is not the occasional good deed or misdeed that reveals the character, but the trend of the life. Even though Moses sinned at a time when he was perhaps closer to God than anyone else every has been (excluding Christ), he wasn't lost because he did so. He simply repented, and was forgiven. Had he persisted in sin, then eventually he would have hardened his heart to the point to where God could no longer have cured him, just like anyone else. IOW, people can reach a point in their walk and relationship with Jesus that to sin afterward would be to commit the unpardonable sin. No, the evidence suggests otherwise. In addition to Moses, David was one who walked after God's own heart. He also sinned, doing terrible things, far worse than Moses, but his sin was pardoned, because he repented. The only way a person can commit an unpardonable sin is to commit a sin for which he refuses to repent. This involves a gradually hardening of the heart.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Atonement in SYMBOLS: Part 1
[Re: Tom]
#105655
12/06/08 04:32 PM
12/06/08 04:32 PM
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The only way a person can commit an unpardonable sin is to commit a sin for which he refuses to repent. This involves a gradually hardening of the heart. Don't you think it means people reach a point where they are incapable of repenting? Refusing to repent implies they are capable of repenting but just don't want to. There is hope as long as they are capable of repenting. A&E would have died in the day they sinned had God not implemented the plan of salvation. Therefore, one sin is enough to qualify as unpardonable. The reasons A&E were pardonable is twofold: 1) Jesus paid the sin debt of death, and 2) A&E were capable of repenting. Also, do you think it's theoretically possible for the 144,000 to sin and repent after probation closes, after Jesus ceases mediating in the sanctuary? And, do you think the same thing is possible for unfallen FMAs?
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Re: Lesson #6 - Atonement in SYMBOLS: Part 1
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105656
12/06/08 04:59 PM
12/06/08 04:59 PM
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Because of continual disobedience, the Lord annexed penalties to the transgression of his law, which were not good for the transgressor, or whereby he should not live in his rebellion. By transgressing the law which God had given in such majesty, and amid glory which was unapproachable, the people showed open contempt of the great Lawgiver, and death was the penalty. {1SP 265.2, 3} Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. ... The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption. {PP 408.4}
He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. {PP 409.1} To those who saw the glory of God on Sinai, a willful violation of the law was punishable with death – which means that their sin was unforgivable (because a willful violation on those circumstances meant contempt for the authority of God and nothing could be able to move these people to repentance).
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