Tom,

You say that pardon removes sin, that God forgets sin without taking actions in regard to it - IOW, He ignores sin by pretending it never existed. The fact that sin brings bad consequences has nothing to do with this, for these bad consequences many times affect those who didn't have any participation in that particular sin.


No, it's not. You say that the inevitable result of sin is death only for those who do not repent. In relation to those who repent, God pretends their sin never existed, and the same is true in relation to the death sentence they were subject to.

This was Ellen White. I quoted what she said:





No, this wouldn't work. The reason this wouldn't work is that sin is deadly. The sinner must be healed, or saved, from its fatal effects. The sin must be removed. You'll notice this is just what the quote says, there is One who can "can take away sin and save the sinner." Since sin is deadly, it must be taken away to save the sinner.



Sin has both bad effects on the one doing the sin and on the one against whom the sin is done. The fact that sin also has negative effects against others doesn't mean it doesn't also have negative effects against the sinner himself. Indeed, it has "fatal effects." (PP 431)



Sure it is! If you take some poison, some action must be taken to save your life, because poison has fatal effects. If one pretends the poison does not exist, you will die.



Christ has power to heal the repenting sinner, which is just what is needed. Fatal effects cannot be dealt with by pretending they don't exist.



No, I never said that. Consider poison, to which sin is likened. If you take poison, it may be possible to save your life by pumping your stomach, for example. Does the fact that your life was saved by taking measures to deal with the poison mean that poison does not result in death? Of course not. Similarly the principle that sin results in death is not negated by repentance.



No, God cannot pretend sin never existed, for the reasons I pointed out above. Regarding the inevitable result of sin, here's the context:



She makes the argument that the death of the wicked is due to their own choice, as opposed to something God does to them. She points out that had God "left" Satan to reap the full result of his sin, this would have led to a misunderstanding, specifically, it would not have been understood that the inevitable result of death is sin.

After Christ's death, the angels no longer suffer this misunderstanding. Now they know the inevitable result of sin is death, and they understand how this works, because of Christ's death. It's not a conincidence that Ellen White's explanation of this is in the chapter "It Is Finished," which is focusing on the results of Christ's death. One of the results is that the mechanism of death has been illuminated so that when God "leaves" Satan, and those who have chosen to follow him, to "reap that which they have sown," this will properly be understood as a choice the wicked themselves have made, as opposed to misunderstood (as it would have been, had God "left" Satan to die right away, at the beginning of the Great Controversy) as something God arbitrarily does to them.

For example:



This explains how Satan, or a follower of him, cuts himself off from life.

Once we understand the mechanism of how sin causes death, the solution will make sense. What's the solution? It's explained in the quote above, from PP. Here's another place that discusses it:



This brings out that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was the "revelation of God." Now if sin is deadly, and we are led into it by deception regarding God's character, it makes perfect sense that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission would be the "revelation of God."

Tom, the following passages refute your idea that sin kills sinners. They plainly teach that sinners would live forever, would be immortal, if allowed to eat of the tree of life. Obviously, then, sin does not kill sinners. If sin kills sinners, as you say, then eating from the tree of life would not prevent them from dying.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

GC 533
Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

SR 388
I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed that flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of the family of Adam has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner." The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death--a death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {SR 388.1}

Let's say I claim that a certain poison kills. You counter, "No, this poison doesn't kill, because it says here in this medical journal that if you have your stomach pumped, you can survive." The fact that there is a remedy for the poison does not mean that the poison does not kill.

The tree of life has healing powers. We are explicitly told this by the SOP, and the Bible itself says that its leaves are for the healing of the nations. If the tree of life did not have healing powers, you could try to make an argument along the lines of what you are saying. But given the following circumstances:

a.A person does something, say X, which is harmful, causing death if an action, say Y, is not taken.
b.The person does not do Y.
c.The person dies.

You can't argue from this that X is not deadly because had the person done Y they wouldn't have died.

All your argument proves is that the Tree of Life had healing powers.

And, Tom, you've missed the point: sin does not inevitably lead to death - death results from judgement, which results from a withdrawal of mercy. Sin's fruit of death is neither naturally fatal nor is hell's occurence just the appearance of God's glory: God's discretion metes out judgement as and when his justice deems it fit. Sin doesn't kill, because sin doesn't kill: sinners suffer annihilation when God says - "at the right time".

Colin, what you wrote looks to be diametrically opposed to what I've been quoting:



It is "not" an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. Instead, the rejecters of God's mercy reap that which they have sown. They choose the service of sin; they separate themselves from God; they thus cut themselves off from life.

Here's something by Ty Gibson:


It is commonly thought that the connection between sinand death is simply that if we don't repent of our sins God will kill us. Often no actual, intrinsic relationship is discerned between sin and death. But even a casual consideration of Scripture on this point persuades us otherwise. Notice just these few examples:












All of these Scriptures portray an organic relationship between sin and death. Sin is set forth as a law, or power, which itself gives birth to death. It is a sowing and reaping principle. Plant carrot seed in the ground and carrots will grow for eventual harvest. Nobody plants carrot seed and then expects God to drop a bag of carrots from the sky as a reward for planting the seed. To the contrary, we understand that there is a n actual connection between the act of planting and the eventual reaping...

Just as the principles of love lead to life, so "sin, when it is finished, bringeth for death" (James 1:15). "As righteousness tendeth to life, so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death" (Proverbs 11:19). When the bible says, "the way of transgressors is hard" (Proverbs 13:15), it does not mean, for example, that if you drink alcohol and drive, God will send an angel to push your car into oncoming traffic. It means, rather, that the alcohol will impair your judgment and balance, which could cause you to lose control of your car and wreck. It doesn't mean that if you smoke cigarettes for twenty years, God will miraculously create cancer in your body, but rather that smoking causes cancer. The same holds true for all sin and suffering, and for sin in its ultimate outcome of final destruction.

And MM's quotes? Love isn't the only thruth revealed about God in the Bible!

Tom, your analogy doesn't prove your point because your point is assumed in your analogy. That is, your analogy assumes sin kills and that the fruit of life is an antidote. Which is totally false. The quotes I posted above support what I've been sharing. And Colin's points are apropos. Also, the healing properties of the leaves of the tree of life apply to people in heaven and in the new earth. Obviously, therefore, it has nothing to with sin or sinning.

Very nicely put, Colin. Thank you.

if sin doesnt kill, why do we die?

im not dealing with the ultimate annihilation idea, just why do we die now?

how/why did adam and eve die?

after the flood why did man start dying sooner and sooner?