Depending upon how one defines "natural consequences," He is doing this all the time:

I think they mean there are times when circumstances force God to punish impenitent sinners. There are 5 different ways He accomplishes this:

1. He employs the forces of nature.
2. He withdraws the breath of life.
3. He commands holy angels.
4. He commands humans.
5. He permits evil angels.

Tom, as you know, I agree with you that God punishes and destroys impenitent sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to punish and destroy them. But there are 4 other ways He does it (which you interpret to agree with the one way).

Also, you seem to think permitting evil angels to wreak havoc is not arbitrary. But what is so natural about the way in which the 185,000 Assyrians died? "And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses." (2 Kings 19:35) In what way did their sins cause them to die?


"Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.
{DA 700.5} How is this not arbitrary (using your definition)?

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished." {GC 614.2} How is this not arbitrary (using your definition)?

Aaron, yes, God does indeed punish and destroy impenitent sinners by withdrawing His protection and allowing them to suffer the natural cause and effect consequences of their sinful choices. But that's not the only means He uses to accomplish His purposes. Please refer to my posts above. Also, not all sins causes suffering and death. As Arnold pointed out - eating the forbidden fruit did not cause A&E to suffer and die.

BTW, why do we say God punishes sinners when they suffer as a result of their sinful choices? Neither God nor sin causes this kind of suffering. The natural cause and effect consequences of their sinful choices and behavior is what causes them to suffer. For example, smoking causes cancer not God and not sin.

I'll ask you same questions I've asked others: How did sin cause the first-born in Egypt to die? How did sin cause the 185,000 Assyrian soldiers to die?

Means by which God punishes (MM):



Regarding 1, nature is not self-acting. It requires the guiding hand of God to function correctly. I'll post an illustration of this principle separately.

The general principle is that when God destroys, whatever comes upon the sinner is the outworking of the forces of death which he himself has set in motion.

Regarding 2, I can't think of an instance where God did this in terms of His punishing someone.

Regarding 3, the holy angels protect us from forces that would destroy us. They destroy by releasing their protection.



Now if the holy angels destroy, then they are acting in harmony with Satan, the destroyer, as opposed to Christ, the restorer. As representatives of Christ, they must act in harmony with Him, restoring, not destroying.

Regarding Christ, when it was suggested that He destroy, He replied:



Holy angels must have the same attitude as their Commander.

Ellen White wrote:



Now if God had holy angels kill rebellious people, this would certainly be overcoming rebellion by force. It would also have God using force as a principle of His government, a principle which EGW claims is found only under Satan's government.

A key principle to consider is whether the forces of death need to be held back, and if they are sufficient to cause destruction if not restrained.



This suggests the answer is overwhelmingly "yes." There are powerful forces which would destroy us, if not for the constant protection which Christ affords us. If Christ withdraws His protections, suffering and death may approach is in a number of different ways, but the principles involved are the same. God's protection is withdrawn, and destruction follows.

There is no need for another mechanism of destruction, as this is sufficient. If God were to actively destroy, then:

a.He would be acting just like Satan.
b.He would be employing force to put down rebellion.
c.Force would be a principle of His government.
d.He would be a destroyer.
e.God would be acting schizophrenically, sometimes in harmony with how Christ acted in the flesh while hear on earth, and sometimes completely differently.
f.It could not be said that Christ in the flesh was a complete revelation of the Father.

Regarding 4, the same principles would apply as above. In addition, the principles illustrated by "The Ever Loving Father" story come into play.

Regarding 5, we agree on this point.

(The following is an analogy, from "Behold Your God," which illustrates a principle by which God uses nature to destroy.)

Let us suppose that there is an atomic power plant located in the midst of a small township of two thousand people. The nature of this power plant is such that an operator must continually be in the control room to monitor the controls. Should this post be left unattended for several hours or more, the nuclear fission will run out of control and blossom into a holocaust of destruction.

The situation arises where every technician but one is taken away and the full responsibility rests upon this man. No one else in the whole area has the training, knowledge, or skill, to operate this volatile equipment.

This creates no special problem, for the man is healthy, very conscientious, and does his work with great faithfulness day and night. He is able to take sufficient rest between check times to enable him to carry on indefinitely.

But, there enters the area an arch-enemy of the technician who determines to run him out of town. To accomplish this, he circulates lying reports until a hate complex is generated among the villagers. They begin to persecute the technician in every imaginable way with increasing intensity. For a very long time he patiently endures the attacks in the hope that they will subside and with the realization that if he does forsake his post it will be disastrous for the village.

Finally his patience runs out. "I have had enough of this," he cries. "I have gone the second and the third mile. These people have shown that they do not deserve to live. I am leaving."
Whereupon he walks out of the control room and drives far away. Several hours elapse and he is safe beyond the reach of the explosion when it occurs. The village and all in it are utterly destroyed.

While it is true that in a certain sense the villagers destroyed themselves, it is equally true that this technician destroyed them for he left them knowing that his departure would bring those sure and certain results. This is the picture which many have of God.

The situation faced by this man is the same as that faced by God. He is the great "Technician" who is in charge of the power house of nature. When He lets go of those powers, there is no one else who can control them and keep them from exploding in a horror of destruction. An enemy has come in and a hate complex has been generated against God.

Many believe this truth and then see God coming to the end of His patience, as in our illustration, and voluntarily withdrawing to leave men to perish in the cataclysm of destruction which inevitably follows.

If this is the true picture of God, then, unquestionably, we would have to agree that He is, after all, a destroyer. [130]
But it is not. God is a very different person from this.
Let us retell the story as it would provide a true picture of God's character.

Here is the same technician, the same control room, the same situation, the same village and the same enemy stirring up trouble.

This time the technician never thinks of leaving. No matter what they do to him, all he can see is their situation. He knows that if he leaves them, they will all be dead men so he stays on. His patience is not in question for he is not thinking of himself at all.

But the persecution becomes more and more intense until the people begin to demand that he go. He protests that if he does, they will perish and for their sakes, not his own, he desires to stay. They, in their hateful blindness, being ignorant of their real danger and over-confident of their own ability to handle the control room anyway, laugh derisively at him and shout for his departure.

With deepest concern for them he holds on and fulfils his work as faithfully as ever. Every time he thinks of them, a pang of fear and pain sweeps through him, and he considers most earnestly how he can win their love and confidence so that he might preserve them alive. Not one thought is for himself—every thought is for them and their need.

But every day they become more hateful and violent until they invade the control room and angrily shout at him to leave. They jostle him out through the door and down to his car. They put him into it and direct him to drive away. There is no choice left. Slowly, he drives out of the village and mounts the first hill beyond. He stops the car, climbs out and looks back toward the angry knot of people gathered to witness that he is truly gone. He spreads his hands in one last loving appeal. The instant response is agitated signals conveying to him their unchanged demand that he go.

What more can he do?

Nothing! Every possible source open to him to save those people is exhausted and with the heaviest of hearts he turns his car into the distance and is gone forever. Several hours pass and then the atomic fireball blasts the village and the villagers out of existence.

No one can say that this man is a destroyer. He acted out the character of a saviour only. He could not and did not save them because they would not let him.

This is the true picture of the character of God.

re #105245

hi brother mm. first i have to say that i am studying and learning, and hopefully growing. i havent bought into anyones book or thinking, unless i already read something similar in the bible and/or egw.

as for your quotes, i dont read them as "proof" that God will punish, as in, daddy/mommy is going to spank you if.... they seem to read more in line with consequences will happen. a serial killer may think he is getting away with something, but it will catch up with him one way or another.

they also have to be read with the "balancing" statements.



this statement above, for me, is the key. God hates pain and suffering and at some point He has to act to stop it. but at the same time He loves the sinner, and is doing all in His power to reach him/us.

do we want to torture that serial killer, or stop him/her?

Smoking is the sin which causes cancer.

Someone else's smoking sin can also cause cancer.