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Re: Lesson #10 - Atonement at the CROSS
[Re: Colin]
#105649
12/06/08 07:17 AM
12/06/08 07:17 AM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Your philosophising, Tom, is apparently endangering the Gospel's achievement of saving the world from sin and death... AFAIK, my thoughts regarding the atonement are the same as Waggoner's, who had "heavenly credentials." Was he philosophizing too? Why can't someone have a different idea than others without being ostracized? It's interesting to see what the viewpoints are of those who do this sort of thing. It certainly doesn't speak well of the view of those who do this! I don't see why you would accuse me of "philosophizing" simply because I'm pointing out clearer ways of expression in English. Regardless, no matter what I was saying, it would be better to simply point out what you disagree with, leaving aside personal comments, which is in accordance with the rules of this forum. As to the content of your post, I agree with what you wrote. You kept to the text in your comments.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - Atonement at the CROSS
[Re: Colin]
#105749
12/07/08 09:17 PM
12/07/08 09:17 PM
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The moral influence theory, and similar theories, do not adequately answer the questions - Why did Jesus have to die? What did His death accomplish? I like how they explain the way Jesus' death can motivate people to repent and to love and obey God. But it doesn't seem to offer satisfactory explanations as to how His death satisfies the just and loving demands of law and justice as it pertains to pardon and past sins. Empowering people to sin no more does not deal with the problem of past sins. God cannot simply ignore past sins. They must be dealt with appropriately. I cannot not help thinking Jesus' death accommodates past sins and makes everything right. Ellen seems to agree: "Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2} I like the following explanations: Justification. Jesus earned the right to own our sin when He lived and died the perfect life and death. He also thereby earned the right to justify forgiven, repentant sinners. Justification is available to everyone who accepts Jesus as their personal Savior. Justification saves us from the penalty of sin. Sins are forgiven in the outer court.
1. The Gate. We experience the gift of conviction, confession, and repentance.
2. The Altar of Burnt Offerings. We crucify the old man.
3. The Laver. We are buried, baptized, and born again a new man.
Sanctification. Jesus also earned the right to empower us to reproduce His lovely character. We are born again morally perfect. We mature morally as we grow gradually in grace and in the fruits of the Spirit. Sanctification saves us from the power of sin. Sins are forsaken in the holy place.
4. The Table of Show Bread. We eat the bread of life, the Word of God.
5. The Candlestick. We let our light shine witnessing and fellowshipping.
6. The Altar of Incense. We pray without ceasing.
Glorification. Jesus also earned the right to serve as our Mediator. During the investigative phase of judgment He blots out the record and memory of sin. Glorification saves us from the presence of sin. Sins are forgotten in the most holy place.
7. The Ark of the Covenant. Jesus blots out our record and memory of specific sins.
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Re: Lesson #10 - Atonement at the CROSS
[Re: Daryl]
#105776
12/08/08 07:08 AM
12/08/08 07:08 AM
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The moral influence theory, and similar theories, do not adequately answer the questions - Why did Jesus have to die? What did His death accomplish? The "Great Controversy" theory, or "Christus Victor" (non-SDA closest equivalent) adequately answers the question. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90) Since Christ's death was part of His own mission on earth, we have here an adequate explanation for its purpose. In other words, Christ had to die in order to provide atonement for the whosoever will of John 3:16. John 3:16 says that God gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish. How this leads to an unbeliever being saved is explained nicely here: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. (DA 175) Clearly the death of Christ was necessary in order for this to happen. So your statement, that Christ had to die in order to provide the atonement of John 3:16 is true.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - Atonement at the CROSS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105831
12/08/08 11:57 PM
12/08/08 11:57 PM
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Tom, I do not see where your view accounts for past sins. How does the plan of salvation, as you view it, deal with the problem of past sins? This is what pardon is about; past sins. Daryl, yes, the reason God can promise what He does in John 3:16 is because Jesus earned the legal right on the cross to pardon and save penitent sinners by paying their sin debt of death There's nothing whatsoever about this in John 3:16, or anywhere else in John for that matter. This is simply reading into what's written's one own personal ideas as opposed to reading what the text actually says. And this is such a simple text! God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. What is the text talking about? 1.God so loved the world that He gave His Son. 2.This was for the purpose of giving us eternal life, saving us from perishing. 3.This happens when we believe in Christ. This is what the text is saying, not anything about earning legal rights to pardon. Here again is the EGW text I quoted: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. (DA 175) This asks the question, how then are we to be saved? The answer is an explanation of John 3:16. We are saved as we "Behold the Lamb of God" and respond to the light shining from the cross which reveals the love of God. If we do not resist this love, we are led to repent for the sins that crucified Christ.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #10 - Atonement at the CROSS
[Re: Tom]
#105840
12/09/08 03:30 AM
12/09/08 03:30 AM
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This is what pardon is about; past sins. Why, how, does Christ's death supply pardon if it is merely a proof of love for this sinful world? - if it is nothing of a legal nature, why is pardon suddenly sought because of it rather then Jesus' preaching or miracles? "Pardon" is a legal concept and action, not so: called forgiveness? How can love by itself allow forgiveness for rebellion & treason? 1.God so loved the world that He gave His Son. 2.This was for the purpose of giving us eternal life, saving us from perishing. 3.This happens when we believe in Christ.
This is what the text is saying, not anything about earning legal rights to pardon.
"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. What relevance has the Lamb of God to God giving his Son to the world out of love? You haven't linked the two in any way: furthermore, What do you make of Ellen White's support of subsitutionary atonement for sinners - this is a separate issue right here...to do with her reasoning, NOT yours!
Last edited by Colin; 12/09/08 04:06 AM.
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Re: Lesson #10 - Atonement at the CROSS
[Re: Aaron]
#105845
12/09/08 08:36 AM
12/09/08 08:36 AM
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T:This is what pardon is about; past sins.
C:Why, how, does Christ's death supply pardon if it is merely a proof of love for this sinful world? I've never said, "It is merely a proof of love for this sinful world." - if it is nothing of a legal nature, I've never said, "it is nothing of a legal nature." What I've argued against is the idea that God needs the death of Jesus Christ in order to be legal able to pardon us. why is pardon suddenly sought because of it rather then Jesus' preaching or miracles? I don't know what you're asking here. "Pardon" is a legal concept and action "Pardon" in Scripture is not primarily a legal concept, not by a long ways. All one needs to do to establish this is simply look through Scripture and see how the word is used. You're looking at "pardon" through the lens of modern Western justice, with a very narrow focus. Let's consider what is perhaps the most famous text in Scripture dealing with pardon. This is from the Lord's prayer: Forgive us our transpasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us. Do you think Jesus had a legal concept in mind here? We should forgive those who trespass against us legally? , not so: called forgiveness? How can love by itself allow forgiveness for rebellion & treason? It can't. I've often made this point, but this isn't primarily a legal concept. I've quoted from "God is Love" many times on this, on the chapter called something like "The Death of Christ Upholds the Law of God." I don't have the quote on this computer, so can't quote it right now.
1.God so loved the world that He gave His Son. 2.This was for the purpose of giving us eternal life, saving us from perishing. 3.This happens when we believe in Christ.
This is what the text is saying, not anything about earning legal rights to pardon.
"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.
C:What relevance has the Lamb of God to God giving his Son to the world out of love? You haven't linked the two in any way: furthermore, What do you make of Ellen White's support of subsitutionary atonement for sinners - this is a separate issue right here...to do with her reasoning, NOT yours!
I didn't understand your last question, or point, whichever it was, but in regards to linking "Behold the lamb of God" to John 3:16, the link is right in the quote I cited: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. (DA 176) Here's another text which makes the same link: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," even so was the Son of man "lifted up: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14, 15. All who have ever lived upon the earth have felt the deadly sting of "that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9. The fatal effects of sin can be removed only by the provision that God has made. The Israelites saved their lives by looking upon the uplifted serpent. That look implied faith. They lived because they believed God's word, and trusted in the means provided for their recovery. So the sinner may look to Christ, and live. He receives pardon through faith in the atoning sacrifice. Unlike the inert and lifeless symbol, Christ has power and virtue in Himself to heal the repenting sinner.(PP 431) The linking principle is "look and live." By beholding the love of God revealed in Christ, we are drawn to repentance. If we do not resist this drawing, we will be healed (i.e. saved).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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