Rosangela, are you talking about Jesus' substitutionary death? Or, are you talking about the final execution of justice and judgment in the lake of fire? The reason I ask is due to the fact Jesus did indeed have to pay our sin debt of death in order to earn the legal right to pardon and save penitent sinners. Death must come in consequence of sin. Jesus satisfied this just and loving requirement.

God sacrificed His Son “that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Romans 3:26) “By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.” (6BC 1095) “In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man’s sin.” (CON 22) “Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man’s stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.” (1SM 340)

Also, if the guilt of sin is enough to cause sinners to die instantly, why, then, didn't A&E die the instant they sinned? How did Eve live long enough to tempt Adam? "Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God." {1SM 230.1} "His brother Abel seeks to appease his wrath by contending for the compassion of God in saving the lives of their parents when He might have brought upon them immediate death." {SR 53.3}

Ellen says that death would have been immediately visited upon A&E had God not implemented the plan of salvation. If sin is what causes sinners to die, why, then, did God have to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life (which would have made them immortal sinners)? "And now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." (Gen 3:22)

And, why will it be necessary for God to expose sinners to the fire light of His radiant brightness at the end of time in order for them to suffer and die? Why not just leave them to their sins and let sin kill them (if that's how it works)?

Also, why will it be necessary for Him to rain down fire from above and raise up fire from below to punish them in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness? Why not just leave them to their sins and let sin kill them (if that's how it works)?

They're not one and the same thing. A transcript is not the same thing as the thing it is a transcript of.

Regarding the rest of what you wrote, I don't see where it addresses my question. If the law is a transcript of God's character, and the law demands that a death sentence be effected before God can pardon (by the way, the law doesn't demand this), then this is tantamount to saying that there is something about God's character which causes Him to require death in order for Him to pardon someone.

What is it about God's character that doesn't allow Him to forgive us freely? (something Jesus says we should to; also which Jesus says God does for us).

You're talking about two different things here. In the analogy of sin with poison, the antitode would be the tree, which has healing properties. The cure for sin would be more like a stomach pump, which would remove the poison from the system.

Anyway, this whole argument is a non-starter. We know that sin causes death. Scripture tells us this all over the place, as does the SOP. "The soul that sins shall die." "The wages of sin is death." "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." "The sting of death is sin." "The inevitable result of sin is death." These are a few such statements.



You didn't respond to the points I made or questions I asked. Jesus said we should pardon others as we have been pardoned. This speaks to a similarity, not a difference.

In what ways do you think the law and God's character are not the same?


1. Correct. The law does not demand pardon. It demands death.

2. Above you said the law and God's character are not the same. Is it possible one of the ways they aren't the same is reflected in the fact the law requires death whereas God made pardon possible?


One needs to permission to freely forgive criminals worthy of death. No court of law has the power to freely forgive violent offenders without the consent and permission of a duly appointed jury acting under the guidance of established laws. God has bound Himself by His word to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.

What is it about God's character that compels Him to revere and uphold the laws He has instituted for the good of all? Love! It's as simple as that. "God is love." And, "love is the fulfillment of the law." Consequently, tough love causes God to do things He calls "strange acts", things is loathes to do. Retributive love is most likely the most difficult aspect of God's character to comprehend. Please refer to quotes I posted recently on this thread describing the retribution of God's love.

How does all of this relate to the topic - Suicide? Well, the law forbids murder, and suicide is a form of murder. But only God knows whether or not suicide victims repented before they died, thus only God knows whether or not they will be saved or punished in the end.

Okay, so you're tree of life analogy failed to prove your point, so let's consider another one. A sad and angry husband catches his wife in the act of committing adultery and throws her over a cliff and she falls to her death. Question - What killed her? Did adultery kill her? Did her husband kill her? Or, did gravity kill her?

It is obvious to me that the sin of adultery is not what killed her. Nor is it what caused her to die. And, yet, I hear you saying sin causes death. But this certainly isn't true in this case. How do you explain this in light of what you believe about sin and death?


On the contrary, the word "similarity" implies differences. I pointed out two of the differences between humans forgiving one another and God forgiving them. Although you have yet to acknowledge the truthfulness of these words, I strongly suspect you nonetheless agree with them. As to the similarities, yes, it is our duty and privilege to freely forgive one another. That is, no one should have to pay to be forgiven. The price has already been paid on the cross. We cannot buy forgiveness for the simple reason it is not for sale. It is free.

BTW, what is the fruit of two evil angels forgiving one another? In what way is it similar to God's forgiveness?

In the way that I stated.



No, this is incorrect. *You* asked "But if His law and His character are one and the same thing" which is assuming a false premise, for the reason I stated.



As I pointed out, it's not necessary to discuss the law at all to answer my question. My question is, what is it about God's character that causes Him to require death before He will pardon?



MM, what is it about God's character that does not allow Him to forgive freely? Since the law is a transcript of God's character, you should be able to answer this question without reference to the law, right?

Pardon? The point of the tree of life analogy was yours. You were trying to use it to disprove the idea that sin kills.

The way you are starting this is really hard to follow. What analogy are you talking about? What is it you think was not proved?



Scripture teaches this. I quoted you the texts. Ellen White stated the same:



The "inevitable result of sin" is death.

She speaks elsewhere of the "fatal effects" of sin. "Fatal" means "deadly," which is to say that it causes death.

Here's something from Waggoner:





Your example doesn't apply since the death that sin causes that we've been discussing is the second death.



??? The sentence "This speaks to a similarity, not a difference." implies similarity, not difference. If I had intended to imply there were differences, I certainly wouldn't have expressed myself the way I did!



The point I was making was that Jesus told us to forgive others as God has forgiven us. The was "as" means "in the same way."



As God as forgive us. That's the point.



Just as God didn't need to be paid.



But not for God's benefit, for ours. God did whatever was necessary in order for us to be willing to accept the pardon He was freely giving us. This speaks to how we should forgive others. We should be willing to do whatever self-sacrifice it takes to bring others to a repentant attitude, just as God has done for us in Christ.



Do they do this?



Do you have any evidence that they do this?

Justice! God is a God of justice and mercy. Justice will not allow Him to freely forgive impenitent sinners. He earned the right on the cross to freely forgive penitent sinners. He thereby satisfied the demands of justice. He also demands love and compassion. Listen:

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

God will soon vindicate His justice before the universe. His justice requires that sin shall be punished; His mercy grants that sin shall be pardoned through repentance and confession. Pardon can come only through His only begotten Son; Christ alone can expiate sin--and then only when sin is repented of and forsaken. {UL 49.5}

It is not justice alone that is to be maintained; for this would eclipse the glory of the rainbow of promise above the throne; men could see only the penalty of the law. Were there no justice, no penalty, there would be no stability to the government of God. It is the mingling of judgment and mercy that makes salvation complete. {Mar 326.2}

The penalty of transgression is always death. Christ averted the immediate execution of the death sentence by giving His life for man. . . . Justice requires that men shall have light, and it also requires that he who refuses to walk in the Heaven-given light, the giving of which cost the death of the Son of God, must receive punishment. {HP 153.3}

The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender. Justice and mercy are blended. Christ and the law stand side by side. The law convicts the transgressor, and Christ pleads in the sinner's behalf. {TDG 246.1}

[God] demands of you to love as Christ has loved souls. He demands of you compassion for the suffering, the erring, those who are subject to Satan's temptations. He demands of you kindness, courtesy to even the unfortunate, a generous consideration of the feelings of others. {SD 271.3}

Good deeds are the fruit that Christ requires us to bear: kind words, deeds of benevolence, of tender regard for the poor, the needy, the afflicted. {2T 25.1}

This makes it sound like justice is some thing, greater than God, which does not allow God to forgive freely. Let me try to put what you said in terms of what my question asked. You are saying that because God is just, He cannot forgive freely. Is that right?