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Re: does God punish? [Re: asygo] #105657
12/06/08 04:15 PM
12/06/08 04:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Holy angels must have the same attitude as their Commander.

Elsewhere of holy angels you wrote – “They were eager *before* understanding the cross to destroy because they hadn't seen the cross, and didn't understand the Plan of Salvation. The Plan of Salvation was a surprise to them. They were amazed by it. Their previous idea to destroy was *incorrect*. (http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...true#Post103755) You wrote these words in response to the following passages:

Quote:
For centuries God bore with the inhabitants of the old world. But at last guilt reached its limit. "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart." He came out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth, and by a flood cleansed the earth of its iniquity. {1888 569.2}

Notwithstanding this terrible lesson, men had no sooner begun to multiply once more, than rebellion and vice became widespread. Satan seemed to have taken control of the world. The time came that a change must be made, or the image of God would be wholly obliterated from the hearts of the beings He had created. All heaven watched the movements of God with intense interest. Would He once more manifest His wrath? Would He destroy the world by fire? The angels thought that the time had come to strike the blow of justice, when, lo, to their wondering vision was unveiled the plan of salvation. Wonder, O heavens, and be astonished, O earth! God sent His only begotten Son into the world to save the world! Amazing grace! "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." {1888 569.3}

God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Outraged justice might have passed speedy sentence upon man. But in love and mercy God gave Him another opportunity. {1888 570.1}

----

For centuries God looked with patience and forbearance upon the cruel treatment given to his ambassadors, at his holy law prostrate, despised, trampled underfoot. He swept away the inhabitants of the Noachian world with a flood. But when the earth was again peopled, men drew away from God, and renewed their hostility to him, manifesting bold defiance. Those whom God rescued from Egyptian bondage followed in the footsteps of those who had preceded them. Cause was followed by effect; the earth was being corrupted. {RH, July 17, 1900 par. 4}

A crisis had arrived in the government of God. The earth was filled with transgression. The voices of those who had been sacrificed to human envy and hatred were crying beneath the altar for retribution. All heaven was prepared at the word of God to move to the help of his elect. One word from him, and the bolts of heaven would have fallen upon the earth, filling it with fire and flame. God had but to speak, and there would have been thunderings and lightnings and earthquakes and destruction. {RH, July 17, 1900 par. 5}

The heavenly intelligences were prepared for a fearful manifestation of Almighty power. Every move was watched with intense anxiety. The exercise of justice was expected. The angels looked for God to punish the inhabitants of the earth. But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." "I will send my beloved Son," he said. "It may be they will reverence him." Amazing grace! Christ came not to condemn the world, but to save the world. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." {RH, July 17, 1900 par. 6}

The heavenly universe was amazed at God's patience and love. To save fallen humanity the Son of God took humanity upon himself, laying aside his kingly crown and royal robe. He became poor, that we through his poverty might be made rich. One with God, he alone was capable of accomplishing the work of redemption, and he consented to an actual union with man. In his sinlessness, he would bear every transgression. {RH, July 17, 1900 par. 7}

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #105658
12/06/08 04:19 PM
12/06/08 04:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
MM, you appear to be reading the statements you are citing in a way that would have God arbitrarily dispensing judgment upon those He deems worthy of such, as opposed to God's permitting those who reject Him and His principles to experience the result of their choice.

Quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36

"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it." Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." DA 759.

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." DA 22.

The statements you are citing need to be interpreted in a way which is in harmony with these principles. A simple way to do this is to understand that God's punishment is not something He arbitrarily does to certain people, but is rather His withdrawing His Spirit from those who have rejecting them, and leaving them to the consequences.

Note, in particular, the following: "Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy." How does God show He is "the living God"? By permitting Satan to destroy.

Tom, as you know, I agree with you that God punishes and destroys impenitent sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to punish and destroy them. But there are 4 other ways He does it (which you interpret to agree with the one way).

Also, you seem to think permitting evil angels to wreak havoc is not arbitrary. But what is so natural about the way in which the 185,000 Assyrians died? "And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses." (2 Kings 19:35) In what way did their sins cause them to die?

"Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.
{DA 700.5}

How is this not arbitrary (using your definition)?

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished." {GC 614.2}

Again, how is this not arbitrary (using your definition)?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #105662
12/06/08 04:52 PM
12/06/08 04:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
(The following is an analogy, from "Behold Your God," which illustrates a principle by which God uses nature to destroy.)

Let us suppose that there is an atomic power plant located in the midst of a small township of two thousand people. The nature of this power plant is such that an operator must continually be in the control room to monitor the controls. Should this post be left unattended for several hours or more, the nuclear fission will run out of control and blossom into a holocaust of destruction.

The situation arises where every technician but one is taken away and the full responsibility rests upon this man. No one else in the whole area has the training, knowledge, or skill, to operate this volatile equipment.

This creates no special problem, for the man is healthy, very conscientious, and does his work with great faithfulness day and night. He is able to take sufficient rest between check times to enable him to carry on indefinitely.

But, there enters the area an arch-enemy of the technician who determines to run him out of town. To accomplish this, he circulates lying reports until a hate complex is generated among the villagers. They begin to persecute the technician in every imaginable way with increasing intensity. For a very long time he patiently endures the attacks in the hope that they will subside and with the realization that if he does forsake his post it will be disastrous for the village.

Finally his patience runs out. "I have had enough of this," he cries. "I have gone the second and the third mile. These people have shown that they do not deserve to live. I am leaving."
Whereupon he walks out of the control room and drives far away. Several hours elapse and he is safe beyond the reach of the explosion when it occurs. The village and all in it are utterly destroyed.

While it is true that in a certain sense the villagers destroyed themselves, it is equally true that this technician destroyed them for he left them knowing that his departure would bring those sure and certain results. This is the picture which many have of God.

The situation faced by this man is the same as that faced by God. He is the great "Technician" who is in charge of the power house of nature. When He lets go of those powers, there is no one else who can control them and keep them from exploding in a horror of destruction. An enemy has come in and a hate complex has been generated against God.

Many believe this truth and then see God coming to the end of His patience, as in our illustration, and voluntarily withdrawing to leave men to perish in the cataclysm of destruction which inevitably follows.

If this is the true picture of God, then, unquestionably, we would have to agree that He is, after all, a destroyer. [130]
But it is not. God is a very different person from this.
Let us retell the story as it would provide a true picture of God's character.

Here is the same technician, the same control room, the same situation, the same village and the same enemy stirring up trouble.

This time the technician never thinks of leaving. No matter what they do to him, all he can see is their situation. He knows that if he leaves them, they will all be dead men so he stays on. His patience is not in question for he is not thinking of himself at all.

But the persecution becomes more and more intense until the people begin to demand that he go. He protests that if he does, they will perish and for their sakes, not his own, he desires to stay. They, in their hateful blindness, being ignorant of their real danger and over-confident of their own ability to handle the control room anyway, laugh derisively at him and shout for his departure.

With deepest concern for them he holds on and fulfils his work as faithfully as ever. Every time he thinks of them, a pang of fear and pain sweeps through him, and he considers most earnestly how he can win their love and confidence so that he might preserve them alive. Not one thought is for himself—every thought is for them and their need.

But every day they become more hateful and violent until they invade the control room and angrily shout at him to leave. They jostle him out through the door and down to his car. They put him into it and direct him to drive away. There is no choice left. Slowly, he drives out of the village and mounts the first hill beyond. He stops the car, climbs out and looks back toward the angry knot of people gathered to witness that he is truly gone. He spreads his hands in one last loving appeal. The instant response is agitated signals conveying to him their unchanged demand that he go.

What more can he do?

Nothing! Every possible source open to him to save those people is exhausted and with the heaviest of hearts he turns his car into the distance and is gone forever. Several hours pass and then the atomic fireball blasts the village and the villagers out of existence.

No one can say that this man is a destroyer. He acted out the character of a saviour only. He could not and did not save them because they would not let him.

This is the true picture of the character of God.

Please consider another story:

Genesis
6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.
6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Quote:
As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

The earth presented an appearance of confusion and desolation impossible to describe. The mountains, once so beautiful in their perfect symmetry, had become broken and irregular. Stones, ledges, and ragged rocks were now scattered upon the surface of the earth. In many places hills and mountains had disappeared, leaving no trace where they once stood; and plains had given place to mountain ranges. These changes were more marked in some places than in others. Where once had been earth's richest treasures of gold, silver, and precious stones, were seen the heaviest marks of the curse. And upon countries that were not inhabited, and those where there had been the least crime, the curse rested more lightly. {PP 108.1}

At this time immense forests were buried. These have since been changed to coal, forming the extensive coal beds that now exist, and also yielding large quantities of oil. The coal and oil frequently ignite and burn beneath the surface of the earth. Thus rocks are heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. The action of the water upon the lime adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes, and fiery issues. As the fire and water come in contact with ledges of rock and ore, there are heavy explosions underground, which sound like muffled thunder. The air is hot and suffocating. Volcanic eruptions follow; and these often failing to give sufficient vent to the heated elements, the earth itself is convulsed, the ground heaves and swells like the waves of the sea, great fissures appear, and sometimes cities, villages, and burning mountains are swallowed up. These wonderful manifestations will be more and more frequent and terrible just before the second coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction. {PP 108.2}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

Said the prophets of old, referring to scenes like these: "Oh that Thou wouldest rend the heavens, that Thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at Thy presence, as when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make Thy name known to Thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at Thy presence! When Thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, Thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at Thy presence." Isaiah 64:1-3. "The Lord hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers." Nahum 1:3, 4. {PP 109.2}

More terrible manifestations than the world has ever yet beheld, will be witnessed at the second advent of Christ. "The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger?" Nahum 1:5, 6. "Bow Thy heavens, O Lord, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out Thine arrows, and destroy them." Psalm 144:5, 6. {PP 109.3}

"I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke." Acts 2:19. "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent." Revelation 16:18, 20, 21. {PP 110.1}

As lightnings from heaven unite with the fire in the earth, the mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrific streams of lava, overwhelming gardens and fields, villages and cities. Seething molten masses thrown into the rivers will cause the waters to boil, sending forth massive rocks with indescribable violence and scattering their broken fragments upon the land. Rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed; everywhere there will be dreadful earthquakes and eruptions. {PP 110.2}

Thus God will destroy the wicked from off the earth. But the righteous will be preserved in the midst of these commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark. God will be their refuge, and under His wings shall they trust. Says the psalmist: "Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee." Psalm 91:9, 10. "In the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me." Psalm 27:5. God's promise is, "Because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known My name." Psalm 91:14. {PP 110.3}

"These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. . . infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God."

Tom, I hear you saying Satan is the one who does things that cause "infidels and blasphemers" to "tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty" and to "acknowledge the infinite power of God." Why would Satan do such a thing?

When people accused Jesus of casting out devils by the prince of devils, He replied, "If Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"

It seems to strange to me to credit Satan with actions calculated to cause sinners to "confess His just sovereignty" and to "acknowledge the infinite power of God." Why would Satan do such a thing?

Re: does God punish? [Re: teresaq] #105664
12/06/08 05:18 PM
12/06/08 05:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, as you know, I agree with you that God punishes and destroys impenitent sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to punish and destroy them. But there are 4 other ways He does it (which you interpret to agree with the one way).

Also, you seem to think permitting evil angels to wreak havoc is not arbitrary. But what is so natural about the way in which the 185,000 Assyrians died? "And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses." (2 Kings 19:35) In what way did their sins cause them to die?

"Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.
{DA 700.5} How is this not arbitrary (using your definition)?

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished." {GC 614.2} How is this not arbitrary (using your definition)?

how do we know that the single angel didnt smite the assyrians in the same way as this account?

2Ch 20:22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.

2Ch 20:23 For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy them: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another.

2Ch 20:24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.

"how do we know that the single angel didnt smite the assyrians in the same way as this account?" If it had happened that way it stands to reason the Bible writers would have said so. The fact they didn't implies it didn't happen that way. Again, listen to how Ellen talks about angels, and note that she doesn't attribute the destruction of the 185,000 Assyrian soldiers to humans :

Quote:
We are informed in Scripture as to the number, and the power and glory, of the heavenly beings, of their connection with the government of God, and also of their relation to the work of redemption. "The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and His kingdom ruleth over all." And, says the prophet, "I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne." In the presence chamber of the King of kings they wait--"angels, that excel in strength," "ministers of His, that do His pleasure," "hearkening unto the voice of His word." Psalm 103:19-21; Revelation 5:11. Ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands, were the heavenly messengers beheld by the prophet Daniel. The apostle Paul declared them "an innumerable company." Daniel 7:10; Hebrews 12:22.

As God's messengers they go forth, like "the appearance of a flash of lightning," (Ezekiel 1:14), so dazzling their glory, and so swift their flight. The angel that appeared at the Saviour's tomb, his countenance "like lightning, and his raiment white as snow," caused the keepers for fear of him to quake, and they "became as dead men." Matthew 28:3, 4.

When Sennacherib, the haughty Assyrian, reproached and blasphemed God, and threatened Israel with destruction, "it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand." There were "cut off all the mighty men of valor, and the leaders and captains," from the army of Sennacherib. "So he returned with shame of face to his own land." 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21. {GC 511.3}

BTW, the title "angel of the Lord" in the OT sometimes referred to the Son of God. Listen: "And I said, Let them set a fair miter upon his head. So they [the angels of God] set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the Angel of the Lord stood by [Jesus their Redeemer]. {TM 40.1} (brackets are original)

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #105670
12/06/08 06:33 PM
12/06/08 06:33 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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thank you for reminding me, but i already knew the quotes from egw, as well as the fact that "the angel of the Lord sometimes refers to Jesus". smile

my thinking was more along these lines.
Quote:
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


two apparently different accounts of the same event.

Quote:
The land was smitten with pestilence, which destroyed seventy thousand in Israel. The scourge had not yet entered the capital, when "David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the Lord stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces." The king pleaded with God in behalf of Israel: "Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let Thine hand, I pray Thee, O Lord my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on Thy people, that they should be plagued." {PP 748.2}


they died of pestilence yet it says the angel had a drawn sword.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: teresaq] #105700
12/07/08 02:30 AM
12/07/08 02:30 AM
Tom  Offline
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There are many examples of this, 2 explanations of the same event, one where God is apparently acting arbitrarily, not unlike a Hitler one (kland has been making this analogy), and another explanation which draws the curtain away from the scene, so we can see what is really happening. Although we have a lot of these examples, there are thousands of accounts of violence in Scripture; most of these episodes do not have a second description.

We need to ask the question, could it be that in these places where we don't have the second description, that there is a similar explanation to the ones that do have the description? This is my conviction.

I may not know exactly what happened, since the second description has not been given, but I can form the conviction, based on the times a second description was given, that there is *some* description, which would be similar to the example teresaq has given here, for every such event in Scripture, for the simple reason that this is required in order for "God to be God." That is, the character of God requires that He always act in harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed about Him during His earthly mission.

The approach MM is suggesting is that if there is another explanation, fine, go with that, but if there is no other description, then the description, which has God (or a surrogate) acting violently, given must be accepted as is. I ask why the principles seen in other like examples cannot be applied to these other descriptions as well.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: teresaq] #105701
12/07/08 02:31 AM
12/07/08 02:31 AM
Tom  Offline
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duplicate post

Last edited by Tom; 12/07/08 02:32 AM. Reason: duplicate post

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #105751
12/07/08 08:30 PM
12/07/08 08:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The following passage describes two entirely different means and methods God has employed to punish and destroy sinners:

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Tom, I hear you saying the underlined part above describes the same thing, namely, God commanding holy angels to step aside and permit evil angels to wreak havoc. But the specific sentence structure totally disallows this interpretation.

Re: does God punish? [Re: asygo] #105752
12/07/08 08:31 PM
12/07/08 08:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, I addressed three different posts to you at the top of th is page (assuming our pages are still the same on our computers). Please respond to them. Thank you.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #105754
12/07/08 08:59 PM
12/07/08 08:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Teresaq, it seems reasonable to me to say God permitted Satan to tempt David to number the people. God tempts no one, but He does allow Satan to tempt people. However, Satan cannot tempt people above God's ability to empower them to resist it unto His honor and glory. See 1 Cor 10:13. The purpose of allowing Satan to tempt people is to afford them an opportunity to trust God and to grow in grace.

The angel of the Lord, with sword drawn, employed the forces of nature to cause the pestilence that killed 70,000 people. Apparently the angel didn't use His sword to cause the pestilence. Neither did God permit Satan to cause the pestilence. God offered David three choices, only one of which involved the angel of the Lord directly.

David said, "Let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man." In other words, he chose "three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel." He specifically requested that God mete out the punishment and not his enemies, which must necessarily include evil angels. This makes it clear to me that God did not permit Satan to do it.

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