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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #105087
11/24/08 04:05 PM
11/24/08 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Jesus did not have an evil heart; instead, He was incarnated with the same sinful flesh you and I inherited at birth. Yes, His sinless, divine nature recoiled from evil; nevertheless, His sinful nature clamored for sinful expression. Such clamoring do not constitute a sin, nor does it contaminate or corrupt character.

A: We have two sources of sin: Satan and the evil of our own hearts. That's according to the MB quote. If Jesus did not have an evil heart, that only leaves Him with Satan as a source of temptation. Right?

M: Arnold, the Bible says Jesus was tempted in "all points like as we are".

A: The MB quote says temptation comes from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. Do you believe there are other sources of temptation besides these two?

Yes. I believe hereditary traits and tendencies are a third source of temptation. I view it in the following way:

1. External sources of temptation include evil angels, unholy people, and all manner of places and things like taverns, music, movies, etc. All these originate outside of us and are channeled through our faculties of mind and body and flesh.

2. Internal sources of temptation include (a) hereditary traits and tendencies and (b) cultivated sinful traits of character (aka "the old man", "the evil of our own heart"). Both of these originate inside of us.

After our "old man" is crucified, that is, after we experience genuine rebirth, and while we are abiding in Jesus, while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while we are partaking of the divine nature 2(b) cannot tempt us from within.

Jesus was tempted by 1 and 2(a).

Do you agree?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #105089
11/24/08 04:27 PM
11/24/08 04:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

Do you believe that Jesus had a corrupt nature?

Quote:
Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. {16MR 182.3}

Yes, Jesus' flesh was sinful, nevertheless, His character was sinless. He came "in the likeness of sinful flesh". (Rom 8:3) His flesh nature warred against Him in the same way and for the same reasons it wars against us.

The word "nature", as it relates to human nature, means many different things in the SOP. It can mean either the higher powers of the mind, the lower powers of the flesh, the appetites and passions, the faculties and functions of the body, the desires of the heart, or cultivated traits of character. The context determines the exact meaning.

Jesus inherited at incarnation everything we inherit at birth. In this sense, His "nature" (everything save character) was fallen and corrupt the same as ours. The only difference between us and Jesus is that He never, ever sinned. Therefore, He never developed "old man" traits of character. In this sense His "nature" (character) was sinless and uncorrupted.

Like Jesus, the 144,000 will possess a nature that is both sinful and sinless. That is, their characters will be sinless, whereas, everything else will be sinful and corrupt. They will stand before God without an Intercessor. They will be blameless and without spot. From this I must conclude possessing sinful flesh, which wars against us, does not corrupt or contaminate us. Nor did it corrupt or contaminate Jesus.

Do you agree?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105198
11/26/08 04:52 PM
11/26/08 04:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Bump for Arnold.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105510
12/03/08 07:41 PM
12/03/08 07:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Bump again.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105530
12/04/08 12:50 AM
12/04/08 12:50 AM
asygo  Offline
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I agree with some, disagree with others.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
A: The MB quote says temptation comes from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. Do you believe there are other sources of temptation besides these two?

Yes. I believe hereditary traits and tendencies are a third source of temptation.

I don't agree with this. Why don't hereditary traits and tendencies count as evil of our own hearts? 1) They are in our own hearts. 2) They are evil. So why don't they count?

Also, how significant do you think is the impact of these "hereditary traits and tendencies" in terms of tempting one to sin, which is the context of the EGW quote? If you are correct that it constitutes a third source, EGW must not have considered it significant, since she completely ignored it.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. External sources of temptation include evil angels, unholy people, and all manner of places and things like taverns, music, movies, etc. All these originate outside of us and are channeled through our faculties of mind and body and flesh.

I agree, though I don't see your distinction between "body" and "flesh" as far as channels through which we are tempted.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
2. Internal sources of temptation include (a) hereditary traits and tendencies and (b) cultivated sinful traits of character (aka "the old man", "the evil of our own heart"). Both of these originate inside of us.

I agree that both are internal. I disagree with the concept that 2b is "evil of our own heart" while 2a is either not evil or not of our own heart.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
After our "old man" is crucified, that is, after we experience genuine rebirth, and while we are abiding in Jesus, while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while we are partaking of the divine nature 2(b) cannot tempt us from within.

I disagree with this. 2b continues to tempt, but the Spirit-empowered Christian does not succumb. At least that's where I stand now; there are quotes that suggest what you are saying. I still have to wrestle with them.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus was tempted by 1 and 2(a).

I disagree. Did you read my little analysis of the relative strength of Christ's external and internal temptations? Check them out here: primary source of Christ's temptations and Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #105555
12/04/08 07:30 PM
12/04/08 07:30 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The heart in Scripture represents the innermost part of man, where he does his deep thinking. We don't inherit our heart.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #105639
12/06/08 12:55 AM
12/06/08 12:55 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, the following passages make it clear that we are born with hereditary traits and tendencies which me must learn to rein in, to keep under the control of a sanctified will and mind.

Quote:
Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

The first experience of the new convert is happy and joyous; but trials come; the perplexities of life are to be met; sinful traits of character that have not been controlled, strive for the mastery, and too frequently obtain it. {SD 89.3}

Self will strive for the mastery and will be opposed to the work of bringing the life and thoughts, the will and affections, into subjection to the will of Christ. {2T 687.3}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. {MB 141.3}

Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. {VSS 304.4}

If before the birth of her child she is self-indulgent, if she is selfish, impatient, and exacting, these traits will be reflected in the disposition of the child. Thus many children have received as a birthright almost unconquerable tendencies to evil. {AH 256.1}

Each soul inherits certain un-Christlike traits of character. It is the grand and noble work of a lifetime to keep under control these tendencies to wrong. {HP 231.2}

Children inherit inclinations to wrong, but they also have many lovely traits of character. These should be strengthened and developed, while the tendencies to evil should be carefully guarded against and repressed. {1MCP 144.4}

Men may possess capabilities given them in trust of God, but if they are not humble men, daily converted men, as vessels of honor, they will do the greater harm because of their capabilities. If they are not learners of Christ Jesus, if they do not pray and keep their natural hereditary and cultivated tendencies under control, traits of character that God abhors will pervert the judgment of those who associate with them. {4BC 1138.5}

It will be well to remember that tendencies of character are transmitted from parents to children. Meditate seriously upon these things, and then in the fear of God gird on the armor for a life conflict with hereditary tendencies, imitating none but the divine Pattern. {4T 438.2}

Fear lest your will shall not be held in subjection to Christ's will, lest your hereditary and cultivated traits of character shall control your life. {COL 161.1}

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. {CH 440.1}

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105648
12/06/08 06:03 AM
12/06/08 06:03 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, do you have Zurcher's book? There's a quote in there which applies "evil tendencies" to Jesus, in a manner similar to GC 489.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #105686
12/06/08 11:45 PM
12/06/08 11:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I don't have Zurcher's book. But I found this online:

Whidden quotes from Jean Zurcher’s book, Touched with Our Feelings: A Historical Survey of Adventist Thought on the Human Nature of Christ:

Christ did not come “in power and splendor,” or even with the sinless nature of Adam…

This does not imply, however, that Jesus inherited “evil tendencies” from Adam. Although the body of Christ was subject to physical deterioration and inherited the weaknesses of man’s physical constitution , He inherited none of the inclinations to evil associated with fallen human nature.

http://egwrctx.info/three-adventist-views-for-the-humanity-of-christ_120/

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105716
12/07/08 05:49 AM
12/07/08 05:49 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There's a quote in the Zurcher book which speaks of Christ's having "evil tendencies" in the same sense as GC 489. That is:

Quote:
There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery.


In the case of Christ, of course, these are innocent tendencies which are passed on by heredity. It's interesting, of course, that she would refer to these tendencies as "evil." However, there are many strong statements about Christ's assumed human nature ("defiled and degraded by sin," "sinful," "offending") so it's not that surprising; there's nothing good about our flesh.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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