It is interesting to note that with the six churches prior to Laodicea, Jesus offers praise with a few comments concerning the things that they are lacking in.

But......

When Jesus addresses the Laodecian church, He offers no praise....only remonstration.

Again, there is no church following Laodecia that would indicate that Christ has a people who are ready and awaiting His Return.

Concerning Paul's statement in I Thess. 4:17....

In this passage, Paul uses the pronoun "we" that would seem to imply that he expected to be alive at the time of the Second Coming of Christ....or at least, that the Second Coming of Christ was imminent and that some of the Christians of his time would be alive and not see death.

Concerning the 144,000......

I do believe that we had a previous discussion concerning the identity of this group. If all of the descriptive details presented in Revelation are understood in their correct context, it can be easily determined that this group of individuals are not representative of the "living saints" at the time of Christ's Second Return.

The obvious conclusion concerning Christ's message to the Laodecian church is this.......

Christ does not have a "hot and ready" church awaiting for Him to return, when He returns.

That is something for us all to think about......

Have we become too "comfortable"?

Yes, we've become too comfortable -- but I must disagree wholeheartedly with your conclusion that Jesus won't have an on-fire church ready to meet Him when He comes the second time.

Perhaps you could share with us specific prophecies that provide a depiction of a church "ready and awaiting" the return of their Lord?

First and foremost who and what makes up the church? i.e. Is it a specifric denomination, is it a group of people etc.. That should be identified first.

God Bless,
Will

The seven churches described in Revelation were seven real churches all existing contemporaneously with John's writing of the book. The immediate context shows Jesus walking amongst all the lampstands at the same time and delivering the messages to all seven as a group. Unlike other passages of Revelation that more clearly describe events occuring in historical sequence, there is nothing in the context of the messages to the seven churches to suggest sequentially occuring historic periods of church history. The context of this part of Revelation more clearly supports these messages as descriptive of the body of Christ throughout history than as characteristics of distinct historic periods of the church. (Indeed, it is very consistent with Jesus' own words describing the Church as having wheat and tares mixed until the harvest.) It is therefore a more consistent interpretation of the words of Revelation to understand all of these as having relevance for our time just as they did to John's original audience.

Just as in John's day there were segments of the Church exhibiting the charcteristics of the various churches, so it is today that there are segments of the the body of Christ that exhibit the various strengths and weaknesses and challenges as described in any one or several of the messages to the seven churches. If, as some here seem to have described Laodicea as not showing repentence, it seems incompatible and inconsistent that those claiming to be the Remnant at the end to consistently find themselves indentified exclusively with this group. If the characteristics of the Remnant, meaning those faithful to the end, are described among the seven churches, it would seem better to identify the Remnant with either Philadelphia or Smyrna. Jesus offers no rebuke to either of these groups, only offering praise for their faithfulness and encouragement for the trials ahead. They seem more aptly describing a purified Remnant that are faithful to the end.

This in nowise diminishes the relevance of the message of Laodicea for people now in the end of earth's history for it is more than evident that many of us fit that description and need to have our eyes opened to our true condition and that we need to go to Jesus and get the faith and love and especially His robe of righteousness from Him that we so desparately need. But there are also significant segments of God's people in need of the strong admonition given to the weary Ephesians to rekindle their first love, the rebuke given to the church of Pergamum and Thyatira for letting false doctrines and immorality take hold of them, and the call to true repentance for those caught in the false revival and dead religion of Sardis. All of us are not afflicted with the same obstacles and weaknesses, just as those of the Church of John's day were not. We each must examine ourselves intently against the descriptions of all the seven churches to be on guard against anything for which Jesus warned and to emulate the faithfulness Jesus praised and encouraged.

Tom

Will,

I would define a "church" as individuals/groups who claim to be Christian. This does not neccessarily mean any denomination or organization.

John,

Your interpretation of the "Seven Churches" makes some sense, and could possibly be correct, but it is not in agreement with traditional SDA interpretation, as you probably know.

At this point in time, I still believe that the "Seven Churches" depict the historical progression/degression of the Christian church for the past 2000 years. My view on this is still open.

One point though, I do believe that the Christian church of today is definitely fulfilling the prophecy of the Laodecian church. I could share some points with you, but it may involve starting another topic, if you are interested.

myarsman wrote,

quote:

---

Perhaps you could share with us specific prophecies that provide a depiction of a church "ready and awaiting" the return of their Lord?

---

Here's one:

Isaiah 25:8,9
"He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

John,

Two things......

Is this not a prophecy concerning the First Advent of Christ?

Secondly, if this is concerning the Second Advent, then the proclamation made by the saints does not indicate whether they are the "living saints" or the "resurrected saints", so this still does not provide evidence that there will be any "living saints or church" awaiting the Second Coming.

myarsman-san,
Your comment: "so this still does not provide evidence that there will be any "living saints or church" awaiting the Second Coming." is baiting.

Please don't turn this thread into your favorite topic of the rapture of the saints before Christ appears the 2nd time. This has been shown to be entirely false.

There will be 144,000 very much alive saints awaiting the return of Jesus Christ. May that day come soon!

Danielw,

You mis-read my intentions.

I do not believe that any "saints" will be raptured before the Second Coming of Christ, nor do I ever recall making any such statement on this forum.

Nor do I intend upon entering into any discussion concerning the identity of the 144,000.

The subject of this thread is in regards to the identity of the Laodecian Church which is described as a "lukewarm" church that is neither "hot nor cold". There is no prophetic depiction of this church ever changing its condition, which leads me to conclude that the Christian church in the latter days will not be "ready and awaiting" the return of our Lord, because they are too "comfortable".

For example, let us look at the Jewish Nation, God's Chosen People, at the time Christ's First Advent. They were aware of all the OT prophecies foretelling Christ's Advent, and they thought that they fully understood them. They were so "comfortable" with their interpretations of these prophecies, that they failed to recognize their Saviour, even when He stood in their midst.

Could history possibly repeat itself?