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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10599
06/18/04 09:03 AM
06/18/04 09:03 AM
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myarsman wrote, quote:
Is this not a prophecy concerning the First Advent of Christ?
No, it's not. The apostle Paul identified it as pertaining to the Second Advent in 1 Corinthians 15:54.
And you still haven't adequately addressed 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. Paul clearly says there will be living saints who are translated mortal to immortal at that time.
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10600
06/18/04 09:13 AM
06/18/04 09:13 AM
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Also myarsman, you talk about the Jewish nation in Christ's time, how most of them were unprepared to meet the Messiah. That's true, but not *all* of the Jewish nation were found in that state. The shepherds to whom the angels first announced Christ's birth were sincerely awaiting Him; the 12 disciples and others were deemed worthy to fellowship with Him. Multitudes followed Him about, and "heard Him gladly." (Mark 12:37) Similarly, at the end of time most, but not by any means all, of His professed followers will not be ready to meet Him. But that's no surprise; Jesus Himself said, Matthew 22:14
"...many are called, but few are chosen."
Matthew 7:14
"...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." But in Revelation 12:17, we read of a remnant, who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." These will be saved, and obviously are ready to meet the Savior, since they keep the commandments of God. Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10601
06/18/04 05:06 PM
06/18/04 05:06 PM
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John,
I thought that I had earlier addressed Paul's statement found in I Thess 4.
Paul, along with the majority of Christians of his day, believed that the Second Coming of Christ was imminent to their time. His words found in I Thess 4 were meant as encouragement to the believers in Thessalonica, so that they would look forward to the return of Jesus with great anticipation.
I Cor. 15:54 does not address the current issue concerning whether their will be any "saints" awaiting the Second Coming. It only states that those who will be saved at that time, will be changed into immortality.
Concerning the Jewish Nation at the time of the First Advent......
I don't recall ever ready any passage of Scripture indicating that the shepherds were "sincerely awaiting" the birth of the Messiah.
Could you share some with me?
It is true that the disciples accepted Jesus as a great Teacher and even believed that He was the Son of God.....but.....do you recall what their reaction was when He was arrested and crucified?
Did they fully understand who Christ truly was?
The passages that you have shared from Matthew and Revelation can be applied to all of Christ's followers that have lived and died throughout the ages. These passages do not neccessarily support a position that there will be a "commandment-keeping remnant" alive on this earth and awaiting Christ's return.
Again, the condition of the Laodecian church depicted in Revelation, would show that non of Christ's professed followers will be ready for His return, when He returns. They will be too comfortable.
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10602
06/18/04 05:41 PM
06/18/04 05:41 PM
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OP
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi Tom,
So basically what you are saying is that the characteristics of hte 7 churches we see mentioned in Revelation are present today correct?
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10603
06/18/04 06:05 PM
06/18/04 06:05 PM
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OP
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi myarsman,
There is no reference mentioning that the people of the Laodicean church are not ready. Instead it is a warning to be heeded on what needs to be done, and that the Laodicean church should not consider itself to be rich etc etc.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10604
06/18/04 07:38 PM
06/18/04 07:38 PM
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Will,
The description of the Laodecian church is very specific. It states that the church is "lukewarma" and there is no indication that this condition of "lukewarmness" undergoes any change.
Secondly, after the Laodecian church, there is no church that follows that is described as being "ready and awaiting" the return of Jesus.
Laodecia is the last church of the Christian era.
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10605
06/18/04 08:29 PM
06/18/04 08:29 PM
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OP
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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That's very true myarsman. The message to the Laodicean church is very specific, and no mention whatsoever of not being ready or being ready. Jesus counsels the church to: quote:
buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10606
06/18/04 11:58 PM
06/18/04 11:58 PM
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Myarsman, quote:
Paul, along with the majority of Christians of his day, believed that the Second Coming of Christ was imminent to their time.
That's not the case; Paul knew full well that the Second Coming was not imminent.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" quote:
I don't recall ever ready any passage of Scripture indicating that the shepherds were "sincerely awaiting" the birth of the Messiah. Could you share some with me?
Are angels in the habit of communicating with those who aren't doing God's will, except in the cases of pronouncing judgments on God's enemies? (as in, Daniel 5:5) Of course the shepherds were looking toward Christ's coming, as were the wise men from the east. Otherwise the shepherds wouldn't have been honored with being the first to hear of His birth. Likewise the wise men wouldn't have been led to Him.
You've shown a tendency towards disbelief in the writings of Ellen White in the past, but I'll quote this anyway, since it's no less inspired than the Bible writings:
"In the fields where the boy David had led his flock, shepherds were still keeping watch by night. Through the silent hours they talked together of the promised Saviour, and prayed for the coming of the King to David's throne. 'And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.'"
{DA 47.3} quote:
It is true that the disciples accepted Jesus as a great Teacher and even believed that He was the Son of God.....but.....do you recall what their reaction was when He was arrested and crucified?
Did they fully understand who Christ truly was?
Not right away. But what's your point? Did that make them any less His disciples, or any less willing to do God's will?
quote:
These passages do not neccessarily support a position that there will be a "commandment-keeping remnant" alive on this earth and awaiting Christ's return.
That's what they say, in plain language. If you can't see that, well.....
quote:
Again, the condition of the Laodecian church depicted in Revelation, would show that non of Christ's professed followers will be ready for His return, when He returns. They will be too comfortable.
If what you say is true, then no one living will be saved when He returns. Such a notion contradicts the Bible in many places.
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10607
06/19/04 03:11 AM
06/19/04 03:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will:
So basically what you are saying is that the characteristics of hte 7 churches we see mentioned in Revelation are present today correct?
That's basically correct. While different characteristics may have been more predominant during different periods in the history of church, the seven taken together aptly describe the range of spiritual health and experience to be found at any time during the history of the church. Given the realities of human nature and experience I think we err if we rely on one disagnosis to evaluate and treat our spiritual health, important and vital though it may be for the right spiritual ill. We have tended to focus all our energies on fitting everyone into the Laodecian spiritual diagnostic category that we misdiagnose many and prescribe the wrong spiritual medicine to heal them and even create a few spiritual hypocondriacs out of spiritually healthy but immature Christians. Imagine if during a flu epidemic where there were obviously a lot of people sick with the flu, that the ER doctors insisted on diagnosing and treating everyone who came throught the door as having the flu! A lot of boken bones would go unset and the right treatment for the flu would leave a lot dead of heart attacks and other equally serious problems.
We have missed an awful lot of value in the messages to the seven churchs by skipping over the first six and acting as if every Adventist fits only the Laodicean description and treating them accordingly. I have met a lot of on fire Philadelphians, a lot of weary old Ephesian warriors of the cross who need a love booster shot, etc. Carefully read through the messages to the other churches and see if you don't recognize some more.
Tom
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Re: Revelation 3:18
#10608
06/19/04 01:55 PM
06/19/04 01:55 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 265
Japan
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My apologies for mis-reading you again myarsman. You are correct that you did not say that the saints are raptured before the 2nd Coming. What you said is that the saints are raptured before the 7 last plagues - thus the 2nd Coming itself will of necessity come before the 7 last plagues also. Here is what you said on this thread: Ellen G. White..... "I read your previous posts with some interest. I am aware of the unique interpretations provided by a Miller and EGw.
In all honesty, I must admit that I am not in agreement with these interpretaions. ...
I do not believe that any "saints" will be raptured before the Second Coming of Christ, nor do I ever recall making any such statement on this forum. ...
The saints, living and dead, will be redeemed from this earth at the Second Coming of Christ. The wicked will remain here upon this earth to suffer the outpouring of the seven plagues."This viewpoint is in disagreement with the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. Your denigrating the two most precious workers for Jesus in the Advent movement: "a Miller and EGw" is sad. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif) Regarding Laodicea: This quote in the original Great Controversy, chapter 32 (The Shaking) is directly related to this subject, showing that yes, the last church at the end is Laodicea. We do know from Word to the Little Flock that at least some of those who are in the 144,000 are called "Philadelphia". quote:
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen. I was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the true Witness to the Laodiceans. It will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver of the testimony, and it will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. This straight testimony some will not bear. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.
I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs, has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it, will obey it, and be purified.
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