the problem with that is that the last i heard God does not create disease and pestilence is disease.

david wanting to fall into the hands of God instead of man just means to me that God would control how much could be done whereas man has no control in his evil heart.

Regarding #105657, if you read my statement in context, there's no contradiction.

Regarding #105658, if the events you cite occurred they way you believe they did, I would agree with your characterization of them as arbitrary, according to Webster's view.

Why do you keep attributing this definition to me? I've already pointed out to you several times that this is Webster's definition, not mine. It is Webster's primary definition that I have cited.

At any rate, I believe the events you cite occurred according to the principles I stated, which are:

a)All that we can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ in His earthly mission, which is to say that Jesus Christ was a full revelation of God's character, or, to put it another way, God never acted contrary to how Christ acted.

b)Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits.

c)The principles laid out in GC chapter 1 were intended to be applied to other events.

d)Satan is the destroyer. The Lord is the restorer.

e)Rebellion was not to be overcome by force.

f)The Lord's principles are not that of force and violence. He does not win by wiping out His enemy's by physical force.

Basically your interpretations have God acting in a way that I believe would be both out of character for Him, and not in accordance with the principles of His government. You see that it's OK if God uses force and violence to get His way. I disagree.



No, I'm not saying this.



Satan is working to misrepresent God's character.



I really don't know what you're talking about here.

I have the same problem. I wonder what makes you (MM) think that God is capable of doing things like this. Given that Jesus Christ correctly revealed God, where did Christ do something like create pestilence and disease? Instead Christ spent His time healing others of diseases.

Christ often attributed to Satan the diseases that the victims He healed had. How many times did He attribute these diseases to God? None.

Satan is the one who afflicts people with disease. God is the one who heals them.

Here's an example of the principle:



This principle, "An enemy hath done this," applies to all evil.

True, Satan is normally the one credited with creating thorns and disease. However, God can, of course, do it, too. For example, when Moses hesitated to believe, God infected his hand with leprosy. Later on God infected Miriam with leprosy because she questioned Moses' authority.

Exodus
4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand [was] leprous as snow.

Numbers
12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
12:10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous.

It is hard to imagine Satan cooperating with God and infecting Moses and Miriam with leprosy considering the fact God was teaching them to trust and obey Him. Why would Satan cooperate with God under such circumstances? Wouldn't it be self-defeating? Can we conclude, therefore, that God's reasons for infecting people with disease serves a higher purpose than when He permits Satan to infect people with disease?

Do you still believe the holy angels held incorrect views before the cross about destroying sinners?


Executing justice is not God using force or violence to get His way. It is neither forceful nor violent. You seem to have no problem with God withdrawing His protection and leaving sinners to the whims and wrath of Satan. You also seem to see nothing arbitrary about what Satan is permitted to do. But please explain to me how it isn’t arbitrary. I see no natural connection, that is, not like when a person ingests lethal poison and dies (there is nothing arbitrary about dying in this case; there is a natural connection). But what is the natural connection in the way the 185,000 soldiers died, in the way the first-born of Egypt died, and in the way the 70,000 died? What is not arbitrary about these cases?


My comments and question assume you believe Satan caused the judgments referred to in the PP 109 quote. If this is true, why, then, would Satan do something calculated and engineered by God to cause sinners to "confess His just sovereignty" and to "acknowledge the infinite power of God." Wouldn't it be self-defeating for Satan?

---

Also, the following passage describes two entirely different means and methods God has employed to punish and destroy sinners:

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Tom, I hear you saying the underlined part above describes the same thing, namely, God commanding holy angels to step aside and permit evil angels to wreak havoc. But the specific sentence structure totally disallows this interpretation. Do you see what I mean?

i dont see it as satan cooperating with God. i see it as God holding satan back.

wouldnt satan have wanted to wipe out the israelites any chance he got to prevent the redeemer from coming?

I think teresaq's comment applies here as well:



Disease doesn't come from God.

This is really simple. There are good things and bad things. The good things come from God, and the bad things come from the evil one.



This wasn't my idea. I quoted the following:





I agree. God does not use force or violence to get His way. This is why I disagree with your ideas in regards to these different events we've spoken of.



This is a weird way of putting it, but we are in the middle of a Great Controversy, and as the SOP explains:



To answer your question, no, I don't have a problem with what Ellen White explained here.



I've never argued Satan isn't arbitrary. I've argued that God is not arbitrary.



You asked the same thing about the destruction of Jersualem. Are you satisfied that the destruction of Jerusalem was not arbitrary?



Satan does things which are self-defeating. For example, he inspired the crucifixion of Christ.



Yes, I understand your difficulty with the above text. I disagree with your conclusion, because of things she wrote elsewhere, such as that force is not a principle of God's government, or that rebellion will be overcome by force, or that Jesus revealed all man can know about God, to name three.

In the cases of Moses and Miriam, in what way did God hold Satan back when they were infected with leprosy? Are you thinking it was Satan who infected them with leprosy?

Also, are you suggesting God was holding Satan back to prevent him from totally wiping out the Jews (which would serve to prevent the birth of Christ)? If so, then I doubt it. There was a time when God Himself would have wiped out the Jews if Moses hadn't pleaded on their behalf. Besides, Satan was quite successful in his efforts to thwart God's plans and purposes in the way he worked through the children of Israel.

just dealing with this for now.

is that true? would God have wiped them out? was that ellen whites view of the scene?

Are you suggesting Satan is the one who infected Moses and Miriam with leprosy?


So, do you believe the holy angels held incorrect views, before the cross, about destroying sinners?


So, do you think God left it up to the whims and wrath of Satan to decide how to destroy the Jews? Or, do you think God set restrictions on what Satan could and couldn't do?


So, are you implying that what happened to the Jews in 70 AD was arbitrary?


It depends on how you answer my last question - "So, are you implying that what happened to the Jews in 70 AD was arbitrary?"

Actually, I would prefer it would you address the following questions separately: "What is the natural connection in the way the 185,000 soldiers died, in the way the first-born of Egypt died, and in the way the 70,000 died? What is not arbitrary about these cases?"


Are you implying Jesus died because Satan inspired sinners to crucify Him? If so, isn't this implying Jesus would not have paid our sin debt of death if Satan hadn't inspired sinners to crucify Him?

Also, do you agree God is the one who engineers and orchestrates the outcomes described in the quote below for the express purpose of causing sinners to "confess His just sovereignty" and to "acknowledge the infinite power of God."

Here's the quote: "The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}


Here's the sentence in question: "The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits."

Ellen says nothing about God employing force to overcome rebellion. She is simply talking about holy angels and evil angels exercising the "same destructive power". The point is - The objectives and outcome are the same whether holy angels or evil angels exercise the same destructive power in response to God's command or permission.

You believe Jesus revealed all that we can know about God during earthly ministry, and yet it is clear Jesus never commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. Nor did He ever withdraw His protection and permit evil angels to exercise the same destructive power. Another thing God did in the OT that Jesus never did while He was here, is He never commanded people to kill sinners. So, obviously, there are things Jesus did not reveal about God while He was here.