Regarding 2, Paul said he would not have known coveting except for the law. This does not preclude the possibility that someone else, other than Paul, could know of coveting apart from the law. This was just a point of logic I was making.

Since Paul tells us that through the law comes the knowledge of sin, this looks to be telling us that it is not simply instinctive. He doesn't limit this to the first four commandments.

Regarding 3, your question assumes that people who don't know Jesus cannot name Sabbath-breaking as a source of unrest. My question to you is why you assume this cannot be done. You say "not one of them" can do this. Just as a starting point, many Jews could do this.

Tom, people sin all the time without knowledge of the law. Similarly there are people who live in harmony with the law who have no knowledge of the law. Nevertheless, no one has ever observed the fourth commandment who had no knowledge of the law.

You wrote, "Your question assumes that people who don't know Jesus cannot name Sabbath-breaking as a source of unrest." That wasn't my question. Here it is again: Are you referring to people who know not the law, who know not Jesus? Are you saying these kinds of people can sometimes name Sabbath-breaking as a source of their unrest? How would they make the connection?

Please note that the question assumes they know not the law and that they know not Jesus. It's both. This excludes Jews. At one point I got the impression you agreed with me people must learn about sabbath-keeping through Bible study and prayer, that they cannot learn about it any other way. Have you changed your mind? If not, how could they name Sabbath-breaking as a source of unrest? How would they make the connection?

can that be proven or disproven and how would we do so?

MM, let me just recap what I believe, and what I disagree with in what I have heard you saying.

I believe that sin has a negative impact on people, even though they may not know why. I believe this involves all sin. I believe that to some extent man knows about sin instinctively, and to some extent now. I believe this applies to the 10 commandments as a whole.

In regards to the Sabbath, I believe man may feel a need to set aside time for God and worship Him as creator. This could be seen as reflecting an instinctive recognition of the Sabbath. Of course, the details of the Sabbath would need to be made known. This could happen by word of mouth, or God could commission an angel to inform someone.

What I hear you say is that there is no such thing as a sin of ignorance when it comes to the last six commandments, that that law is not needed for these commandments. I disagree with this idea, because sin is a spiritual thing, so instinct alone is not enough. Indeed, Paul wrote that he would not have known coveting except for the law.

Nothing in nature points to the seventh-day of the week as the only day of the week to be observed as a holy day of rest in honor of the one true God's creative power and love. Also, there is no record of people groups observing the fourth commandment without having first learned about it through contact with Sabbath-keeping believers. There are rumors that an indigenous tribe began keeping the Sabbath in response to a dream or vision received by one its tribesmen, but even if the reports are true they would have learned about it from a Sabbath-keeping angel.

Tom, I agree with you that people naturally, instinctively feel a sense of unrest and emptiness when they violate any one of the ten commandments. Many learn to silence the voice of God speaking to them through their conscience and they eventually hear His voice no more and the sense of unrest and emptiness gives place to a dead and lifeless heart. Others hear God's voice in their inner man and come to know and love and obey God. Not everyone, however, discovers the truth about Sabbath-keeping. Many will not learn about it until they keep it for the first time en route to heaven.


Again, I believe normal, healthy people, who haven't hardened their hearts beyond hope, feel a sense of unrest and emptiness when their thoughts, words, and behavior are not in harmony with the ten commandments. This applies to everyone, including people who know not the law. There is no need for them to be able to name the commandments to feel a sense of unrest and emptiness. It happens naturally, instinctively. That's the way God designed and created them. Naming the specific commandment they broke is not necessary to feel empty and unrestful.

I agree with you that instinctively feeling empty and unrestful when their thoughts, words, and behavior are not in harmony with the law is not enough to understand the spiritual aspect of the law. "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned." I'm not sure what your take is on the spiritual aspect of the law, but from what I've learned about it, I believe it has very much to do with the cross.

Not wanting to feel empty and unrestful and not wanting to crucify Christ afresh is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. It is impossible for them to not want to sin for spiritual reasons until the Holy Spirit reveals their sins to them in light of the cross. Otherwise, sin is viewed as a nuance rather than as something that caused Jesus incomprehensible pain and agony on the cross.

Nevertheless, no one can do something that is not in harmony with the last six commandments without realizing it makes them feel empty and unrestful. Again, it is not necessary for them to name the commandments to know that 5) dishonoring their parents, 6) adultery, 7) murder, 8) stealing, 9) lying, and 10) coveting makes them feel empty and unrestful. They know naturally to avoid these things if they hope to dodge feeling empty and unrestful.

Thus, they cannot commit a sin that violates the second half of the law without realizing it. They are never ignorant of the fact. However, apart from the Holy Spirit they cannot grasp the spiritual depth of sin and so cannot truly avoid feeling empty and unrestful even if they manage not to do those things that they know will make them feel bad.

Again, I don't know why you separate the last six commandments from the first four. You write:



Why not?

You yourself have given the example of couples ignorantly living together. I'm sure many couples have no idea at all that this is sin, nor would the following assertion be true:



I don't know why you would assert this. What you are asserting is far more than simply the idea that sin makes them "unresful." You are asserting that if it's a sin from the second table that they recognize that the specific thing they are doing, the specific sin, makes them "unrestful." So, for example, if they are living together without being married, they would be recognizing, "Oh, I'm 'unrestful' because I'm living with someone without being married to them."

Where's the evidence of this?