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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105975
12/12/08 01:10 AM
12/12/08 01:10 AM
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Colin  Offline
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E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
My guess at Colin's answer: Yes
My guess at Tom's answer: What I'm talking about has nothing to do with morality

Your guess is half right! Morally perfect mind (Phil 2:4-odd), but sinful flesh. You probably heard that before, but you don't like it?

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Colin] #105977
12/12/08 01:42 AM
12/12/08 01:42 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Colin
Originally Posted By: asygo
My guess at Colin's answer: Yes
My guess at Tom's answer: What I'm talking about has nothing to do with morality

Your guess is half right! Morally perfect mind (Phil 2:4-odd), but sinful flesh. You probably heard that before, but you don't like it?

Morally imperfect flesh? I've heard that once before. I still don't know what it means. Care to elaborate?

Of course, "flesh" has different meanings, depending on the context. "Flesh" has moral implications, as far as I know, only when referring to things that include the mind, such as "the flesh lusts against the Spirit." But apart from the mind, as you have distinguished Christ's morally perfect mind in your answer, I have no idea how it can have moral qualities.

For me, Jesus was perfect in every way that has moral qualities. That, in itself, is a very significant, and crucial difference between Him and the rest of us.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105979
12/12/08 02:58 AM
12/12/08 02:58 AM
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Colin  Offline
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Quote:
For me, Jesus was perfect in every way that has moral qualities. That, in itself, is a very significant, and crucial difference between Him and the rest of us.

I don't seek to discipher all possible the moral parts of human nature, as "he was made like his brethren" and that only makes sense should Jesus be the same as Christians: "the mind of Christ" being the common factor within sinful humanity for the purpose of glorifying God by perfect obedience.

What, otherwise, did SOP denote by allusion to degenerate, sinful humanity that Christ assumed...

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Colin] #105981
12/12/08 08:16 AM
12/12/08 08:16 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Colin
What, otherwise, did SOP denote by allusion to degenerate, sinful humanity that Christ assumed...

Whatever those allusions may be, these must still hold true:

Quote:
He is a brother in our infirmities, but not possessing like passions. As the sinless One, his nature recoiled from evil. {ST, August 7, 1879 par. 18}

We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. {1SM 256.2}


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105988
12/12/08 04:35 PM
12/12/08 04:35 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Colin
What, otherwise, did SOP denote by allusion to degenerate, sinful humanity that Christ assumed...

Whatever those allusions may be, these must still hold true:

Quote:
He is a brother in our infirmities, but not possessing like passions. As the sinless One, his nature recoiled from evil. {ST, August 7, 1879 par. 18}

We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. {1SM 256.2}

She speaks of him taking our sinful human nature, so her other expressions, like you cited, must remain in that overall context! And she's only pointing to Scripture, which says God's Son came in ordinary human nature...that's what "sarx" means.

Mind, flesh, & character are our spiritual reality and moral orientation, to mind & Spirit rather than flesh - just how Jesus "learned obedience", so we can indeed personalise Christ's righteousness in our own characters (Rev 19:8b).

We share the same target but we differ on the necessary means...:-)

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #106015
12/13/08 05:29 PM
12/13/08 05:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
MM said: One of the other things Jesus came to prove is that even people born in sin (people who inherit internal foes, that is, evil traits and tendencies which continually clamor for sinful expression, which ceaselessly tempt and annoy) can, in spite of their sinful condition and circumstances, experience rebirth and obey the law perfectly.

Jesus never experienced rebirth. None could accurately say to Him, "You must be born again." His first birth was good enough. And you acknowledge this in your last post.

Does that mean that Jesus was not an example for those who must be born again? Was He not an example to those who not only were born in sin, but have lived in sin? I believe He was.

Even so, I do not believe that He had to become what He wanted to save. If He did, then we would have to throw out quite a bit of Scripture, such as "in Him there is no sin."

Jesus did things that were expected of people who experienced rebirth, namely, He got baptized - "to fulfill all righteousness". He also inherited "sinful flesh", in spite of the fact it "flesh lusteth against the Spirit". Nevertheless, He was "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit". He reined in His fleshly lusts and kept them under the control and dominion of a sanctified will and mind, and He did it in the exact same way born again believers do it - by partaking of the divine nature and walking in the Spirit. None are contaminated by the unholy clamorings of fallen flesh while they are doing what Jesus did - abide in God!

"Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}

"And only those who live the life of Christ are His co-workers. If one sin is cherished in the soul, or one wrong practice retained in the life, the whole being is contaminated. The man becomes an instrument of unrighteousness. {DA 313.1}

"The sin of evilspeaking begins with the cherishing of evil thoughts. Guile includes impurity in all its forms. An impure thought tolerated, an unholy desire cherished, and the soul is contaminated, its integrity compromised. "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." If we would not commit sin, we must shun its very beginnings. Every emotion and desire must be held in subjection to reason and conscience. Every unholy thought must be instantly repelled. {5T 177.1}

NOTE: none are contaminated by unholy thoughts, emotions, or desires so long as they are abiding in Jesus and cooperate with the agencies of heaven and hold such unholy thoughts, emotions, and desires in subjection to reason and conscience. Thus it was with Jesus!

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: teresaq] #106016
12/13/08 05:52 PM
12/13/08 05:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
i have a question.:) where in the bible does it say that Jesus struggled with, say, covetousness, or lustful thoughts, etc?

what are the exact temptations Jesus suffered that are recorded in the scriptures?

Jesus was in "all points tempted like as we are". You name it and He was tempted with it either in particular or in principle. But not once did He ever waver between sin and righteousness; not once did He struggle with wanting to sin. He resolutely resisted temptation unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Satan and sinful flesh tempted Jesus at every step He took toward the cross but not once did He stammer, stumble, or yield. Indeed, it was repulsive to Him. He "suffered being tempted", that is, even the thought of digressing from the will of our holy, heavenly Father was disgusting to our sweet and sinless Savior. His sinless, sensitive soul recoiled at even the mere mention of misrepresenting God. So it may be with us if we will abide in Jesus in the same way He abided in the Father.

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Mountain Man] #106017
12/13/08 06:19 PM
12/13/08 06:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Morally imperfect flesh? I've heard that once before. I still don't know what it means. Care to elaborate?

Of course, "flesh" has different meanings, depending on the context. "Flesh" has moral implications, as far as I know, only when referring to things that include the mind, such as "the flesh lusts against the Spirit." But apart from the mind, as you have distinguished Christ's morally perfect mind in your answer, I have no idea how it can have moral qualities.

For me, Jesus was perfect in every way that has moral qualities. That, in itself, is a very significant, and crucial difference between Him and the rest of us.

Ellen's argument is convincing: "For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1}

Her argument does not in the least imply Jesus participated in sin like a sinner. "Assuming human nature" does not imply Jesus sinned any more than it implies humans are guilty of sinning the moment they inherit sinful flesh nature. Having sinful flesh is not the same thing as sinning. Sinning is a separate set of dynamics. Yes, people sin because they have a sinful flesh nature but having a sinful flesh nature is not a sin. God does not count us guilty of sin simply because we have a sinful flesh nature. Sin is the stuff of choice and character.

Also, it is clear to me in the Bible and the SOP that sinful flesh tempts us from within. It would continue to do so even if evil angels were dead and gone. Sinful flesh is the seat and origin of all such internally generated temptations. Yes, we become aware of them through the sinless faculties of our mind but they originated in sinful flesh, which has, as it were, a mind and voice of its own.

Sinful flesh produces unholy thoughts and feelings in the form of electrical impulses which are passed on along the normal lines of communication between the body and brain. The faculties of the mind convert these electrical impulses into conscious thoughts and feelings. The mind makes no attempt to pass moral judgment on the communications it receives and translates, that is the office and function of reason and conscience.

The process by which we are tempted from within is neither sinful nor sinless - it just is. It is the same process by which we receive communications from God. It's merely a tool, like a computer, a telephone, or a television, and as such it is neither sinful nor sinless. It is merely the means God designed whereby we may receive messages internally and externally. What we do with those thoughts and feelings determines our guilt or innocence, our failure or success.

Ellen addresses this aspect of mankind in the following passage:

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Mountain Man] #106027
12/13/08 08:55 PM
12/13/08 08:55 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: teresaq
i have a question.:) where in the bible does it say that Jesus struggled with, say, covetousness, or lustful thoughts, etc?

what are the exact temptations Jesus suffered that are recorded in the scriptures?

Jesus was in "all points tempted like as we are". ....


well thank you but i think the 3 recorded temptations might give us an understanding.

Satan summons all his forces and throws his whole power into the combat. Why is it that he meets with no greater resistance? Why are the soldiers of Christ so sleepy and indifferent? Because they have so little real connection with Christ; because they are so destitute of His Spirit. Sin is not to them repulsive and abhorrent, as it was to their Master..... {GC 507.3}

if sin was repulsive to Jesus how could it be a temptation? i am not tempted by what i find repulsive. i am tempted by what i find attractive.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Mountain Man] #106048
12/14/08 07:42 AM
12/14/08 07:42 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus did things that were expected of people who experienced rebirth

Did He ever have an unregenerate nature to struggle against?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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