i dont think that is Gods purpose. at least that isnt how i understood it when reading on my own. i dont think God does it to manipulate people into recognizing Him as God, but as a means to get their attention. to try and get them see beyond their/our little world.

Was God serious about destroying Israel? Or, was He testing and proving Moses? If so, would God have actually destroyed Israel and started over with Moses if he had failed the test?

Exodus
32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:
32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

"He proposed to Moses to consume them, and make of him a great nation. Here the Lord proved Moses. He knew that it was a laborious and soul-trying work to lead that rebellious people through to the promised land. He would test the perseverance, faithfulness and love of Moses, for such an erring and ungrateful people. But Moses would not consent to have Israel destroyed. {3SG 276.2}

PS - In the cases of Moses and Miriam, in what way did God hold Satan back when they were infected with leprosy? Are you thinking it was Satan who infected them with leprosy?

It sounds like you are saying the same thing, though. Here's what I mean. Ellen wrote, "These judgments are sent . . ." Why? So that sinners ". . . may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty."

You're right, God doesn't do it to "manipulate" them but rather to "lead" and to "constrain" them to (1) "tremble before His power" and to (2) "confess His just sovereignty" and to (3) "acknowledge the infinite power of God."

Again, it doesn't make sense to me to say Satan is the one actually doing it. The reason why is that the intended and actual outcome serves the kingdom of God. Why would the Devil consent to do something that serves to undermine everything else he is seeking to accomplish?

thats going on the assumption that satan would be knowingly cooperating with God.

why did satan want to attack job?

which would seem to tie in with richards point of did satan mean to kill Jesus.

we can read this in a superficial manner or we can see the "heart" of it.

was God testing moses? or was God showing-and recording-moses love for Gods people, which was a faint representation of Gods love for us all?

when that was pointed out to me it makes me really step back and take stock. i have the patience of a gnat. there are some people on these forums, that maybe i dont wish them any harm, but if they disappeared that would be nice.

those people provoked moses all day every day, yet moses still interceded for them time after time, til the day of his death.

wow!! that sure shows me where i lack in the love department!

Teresaq, yes, it certainly appears that God was testing and proving Moses' love and patience for the people of God. And, like you, I desire to be more and more loving and patient.

On another note, referring to one of your previous posts on this thread, in the cases of Moses and Miriam, in what way did God hold Satan back when they were infected with leprosy? Are you thinking it was Satan who infected them with leprosy?

Are you suggesting Satan is the one who infected Moses and Miriam with leprosy?


So, do you believe the holy angels held incorrect views, before the cross, about destroying sinners?


So, do you think God left it up to the whims and wrath of Satan to decide how to destroy the Jews? Or, do you think God set restrictions on what Satan could and couldn't do?


So, are you implying that what happened to the Jews in 70 AD was arbitrary?


It depends on how you answer my last question - "So, are you implying that what happened to the Jews in 70 AD was arbitrary?"

Actually, I would prefer it would you address the following questions separately: "What is the natural connection in the way the 185,000 soldiers died, in the way the first-born of Egypt died, and in the way the 70,000 died? What is not arbitrary about these cases?"


Are you implying Jesus died because Satan inspired sinners to crucify Him? If so, isn't this implying Jesus would not have paid our sin debt of death if Satan hadn't inspired sinners to crucify Him?

Also, do you agree God is the one who engineers and orchestrates the outcomes described in the quote below for the express purpose of causing sinners to "confess His just sovereignty" and to "acknowledge the infinite power of God."

Here's the quote: "The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}


Here's the sentence in question: "The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits."

Ellen says nothing about God employing force to overcome rebellion. She is simply talking about holy angels and evil angels exercising the "same destructive power". The point is - The objectives and outcome are the same whether holy angels or evil angels exercise the same destructive power in response to God's command or permission.

You believe Jesus revealed all that we can know about God during earthly ministry, and yet it is clear Jesus never commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. Nor did He ever withdraw His protection and permit evil angels to exercise the same destructive power. Another thing God did in the OT that Jesus never did while He was here, is He never commanded people to kill sinners. So, obviously, there are things Jesus did not reveal about God while He was here.

when it comes to every specific case i try not to speculate. the bible says what it says period. i have not made up my mind one way or the other here and may never make up my mind on this subject this side of eternity as it may seem too dangerous to do so.

but in general, it would seem quite possible, since we are dealing with the mind of God, that we dont have all the info and should walk with care.

its like the "wrath of God". when we read that in the bible we get that God is angry and acting in vengence. but looking deeper, at what we were overlooking before, we see that is not the case at all.

I agree with Teresaq's comments very much in regards to not having all the info, so we should walk with care.

Regarding leprosy, Satan invented it, not God. It is a disease which Satan invented that God permitted them to obtain.

Regarding, "So, do you believe the holy angels held incorrect views, before the cross, about destroying sinners?" you cut off my quote, so it's difficult to follow here. You're saying, "so," but not providing the context of the "so."



Did Ellen White say that? No, right? So know, that's not what I'm agreeing to. As I stated, yours is a weird way of putting it, and I agree with what Ellen White said, which I quoted.

Regarding if I'm implying A.D. 70 is arbitrary, no.



My answer is no.



I don't wish to address the questions separately, as I believe the same principles are at work in these instances as with Jerusalem, that latter being something that we have a great deal of information regarding, a whole chapter of over twenty pages.



From "It Is Finished"



If so, isn't this implying Jesus would not have paid our sin debt of death if Satan hadn't inspired sinners to crucify Him?[/quote]



No, I don't think so. I think evil men would have crucified Christ, even without Satan's help. By the way, it's worthy of note that the SOP says that Satan shed the blood of the Son of God.

Regarding if I agree with the SOP, I do.



The underlined portion has God and evil angels acting in such a way that's it's impossible to distinguish one from the other. This is something I find particular dangerous in regards to your theory, in particular given that Satan will impersonate Christ.



Yes, I believe this, because this is what the SOP said in 8T 286.



So the logical conclusion is that neither has God.



I disagree with this assertion. We see what happened when Jesus allowed the demons power of the pigs. When Jesus left Lazarus, he became sick and died, which is directly tied in Scripture to Jesus' actions. And there's the example of Jerusalem, where Jesus said He would gather them as a hen gathers its checks, but they didn't want that, so their house was left to them desolate. There are also dozens of examples of Jesus' healing the victims of Satan of their diseases. Whenever anyone dies of disease, which happened in Jesus' lifetime (whenever He wasn't around, as with Lazarus) this is example of the principle.



Here's what Ellen White wrote:



I agree with her and disagree with you.

The "wrath of God" is often referred to as "righteous indignation". I agree we shouldn't read sinful human feelings into the passages that portray as God being angry and vengeful. When God experiences anger, it is nothing like when fallen humans get angry. There is no comparison. Yes, the Bible says, "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath." But even sinless human anger comes short of the glory of God.

God gets angry, there is no doubt about it. God is vengeful, there is no doubt about it. I see no reason to deny it or to marginalize it. But, as you said, we should be extremely careful not to attach sinful human feelings to it. God can do things that would be wrong and unrighteous for us to do. Once again, Ellen states it very nicely:

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}