Too bad the Bible portrays God doing things Satan actually did. No wonder there as so many skeptics. In truth, I do not agree the Bible does this. I take God at His word. Since it says God inflicted Moses and Miriam with leprosy I believe it. I feel no need to interpret it to mean something it clearly did not say.


Do you believe the holy angels held incorrect views about destroying sinners before the cross? NOTE: I know you do, at least I know you did. I'm asking again because your hesitancy to answer my question leads me to believe you may have changed your mind.


Which of the two questions are you saying no to? In case you're unclear as to which two questions I'm referring to, here they are again: Do you think God left it up to the whims and wrath of Satan to decide how to destroy the Jews? Or, do you think God set restrictions on what Satan could and couldn't do?


What part of it was not arbitrary? The part about God handing the Jews over to Satan for rejecting Jesus? Or, the part about the Romans besieging and destroying the Jews because they rebelled against Roman occupation and rule? NOTE: Please note that I asked two opposing questions. I would appreciate it if you would address both separately. Thank you.


I assume by "same principles" you mean God withdrew His protection and permitted evil angels to destroy the different groups of people mentioned in my questions above. Is that right? If so, then I don't see the natural cause and effect relation in these events. That is, how did their sins cause them to die the way they did? If it was as natural as you seem to believe why, then, did it require evil angels to make it happen? Would they have died in the same way if the evil angels did nothing to make it happen?


No. It doesn't imply any such thing. Jesus was going to pay our sin debt one way or another. And, no one killed Him. He laid down and took up His own life. This isn't Hollywood. Jesus didn't happen to get lucky and announce His death seconds before He died. The reason He died immediately after saying, It is finished, is because He laid down His life.


The SOP also says we all shed His blood on the cross. Obviously none of us were there in person, so it means something very much different. Also, no one could have laid a finger on Jesus if it hadn't been His will. Not even Satan. Especially not the Jews or Romans. Jesus could have gone home in the twinkling of an eye if He wanted to. But it was His and desire to pay our sin debt of death.


Her words are too clear to twist to mean the opposite of she wrote. It would be interesting to ask a hundred English teachers to explain the meaning of her words. I have no doubt they would agree with me and not you. There is no hint whatsoever of your view in this sentence or in the paragraph from which it comes.


Logic has nothing to do with it, Tom. Logic is not the judge of truth.

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Gotta run, so I'll finish addressing this post later on:

Not really. There are times you don't do what you're claiming. For example:



Do you "take God at His word" here? Do you believe God sent fiery serpent among the people? Or do you believe that the serpents were there already, and God simply withdrew His protection?



Did God kill Saul?





And here you have direct evidence that the Bible presents God as doing that which Satan does.

Another example would be Jerusalem in AD 70. The Bible says God destroyed Jerusalem, yet the SOP says:



I know you said "too bad" in a sarcastic way, but in a sense it *is* too bad Scripture has to be this way. But, if you think about it, there's no way around it. God is Sovereign of the Universe, so in some sense He is responsible for all that happens in it, since without Him there would be no Universe. So this is one factor.

Another factor is that Satan is very clever. He has fooled all of us at one time or another with his impersonations of God, and many of us don't even recognize this fact!

If you think about how the GC started, Satan presented himself as being reasonable, simply honestly questioning whether God's ways were right or not, if they were reasonable, if there wasn't a better path to follow. But he had an ulterior motive, which was the exaltation of self.

Satan said that God didn't have the best interests of His creatures at heart, that He was a sever and harsh dictator who would punish anyone who in the least defied His will, that He was selfish and sought His own glory.

How was God to answer these charges? If He said, "No, you are the one who is selfish. You are the one with ulterior motives. You are the one seeking to exalt himself. You are the one who doesn't have the best interest of others in mind. You are the severe and harsh dictator who punishes anyone who defies your will in the least way." what good would it have done? No good at all.

The only way to resolve the conflict was to allow the two governments to develop, so the principles of the two protagonists could be clearly seen. So clever was Satan, that it wasn't until the cross that Satan's true character was made clear:



Satan is such a clever antagonist, it's not a simple thing to determine who is doing what. There was great misunderstanding regarding God's character, so God sent His Son:



The "whole purpose" of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, to set men right.

No, I haven't changed my mind. I still believe the EGW quotes I have been using to reply to this question are true.



You asked a question. I answered it. You asked it again. I answered it again. I'm referring to the question which you asked, which I said was a weird way of putting it. As I stated, I agree with what Ellen White wrote about it, which I think was well put. For example:





I don't know what you're asking. The point I have made is that God is not arbitrary. God did not do something arbitrary to punish the Jews. God allowed the Jews to have their choice of leader, and all the bad things that happened resulted from that choice. This is what I'm saying is not arbitrary.

Regarding the same principles question and evil angels, the same principle is that God withdraws His protection, and then bad things happen. There may be different agents which cause the bad things (nature, evil angels, people), but it's the same general principle involved.

More later.

This get messed up. You asked the question, "If so, isn't this implying Jesus would not have paid our sin debt of death if Satan hadn't inspired sinners to crucify Him?" not me, as it looks like from the quote. And then you answered your own question.

Here's how I answered your question:



It's interesting that you say "no one killed him" but Scripture says that evil men "put him to death" and the SOP says that Satan "shed the blood of the Son of God." Your statement that no one could have harmed Jesus had He not permitted is correct, and this was Jesus' point in saying that He laid down His life, that no one took it from Him against His will. He was a willing sacrifice.



Apparently her words are not too clear to twist to mean the opposite of what she wrote when she writes, "Satan shed the blood of the Son of God."

Here are some other examples of her words not being too clear to twist:





When it suits you, you have no qualms about "twisting" her words (to use your word). This is really a case of the pot calling the kettle black!

Back to the subject at hand. Here's what I said:



You didn't respond to the point being made. If your view of things were correct, then you would have God and evil angels working in a way that is indistinguishable from one to the other. You would have God acting like a dictator. This is the same point that kland has been making on another thread.

But God and Satan are different. Their characters are different, and they have different objectives and outcomes, as well as different principles, and different methodologies to bring about their objectives.

For example, force is not a principle of God's government. The SOP says this. You agree with this, since EGW said it, but you define "force" in such away to exclude anything God does. So in your view, God can do something which would be force if anyone else were doing it, but because it is God doing it, it is not force. This makes her statement of no force.



What?

Another "factor" is the fact God can start and stop anything, that is, nothing happens without His consent. Satan is not at liberty to do as he pleases. He is bound by the rules of engagement as set forth and upheld by God.

You are stretching it, Tom. Did the Bible or the SOP ever draw the same conclusion you have regarding the events you named, namely, that these events demonstrate the one and only principle of destruction you are advocating?


Wh....er! There you go again. You are implying it wasn't God who commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. What is about the following commands that make you think it wasn't God who commanded them?

Leviticus
24:13, 14, 24 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers
15:35, 36 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

There's a whole chapter of over 20 pages in the SOP which explains exactly this description of the principle.



This looks like a swear word that cut off.



MM, we're going at this two ways. I am saying:

1.Christ revealed all man can know about God.
2.If you see something in the OT, or elsewhere, which does not agree with what Christ revealed, then what you see isn't right.

You are saying:

1.Christ didn't reveal man can know about God.
2.The proof of this is (you give different examples here).

If you have the conviction that "something is wrong" with your understanding, you will, of yourself, come up with an explanation which makes sense, which harmonizes with what Christ revealed of God. You don't need me to do this.

OTOH if you are convinced that there is nothing wrong with your understanding, you would reject any explanation I could possibly give, so what's the point?

We've been over and over these things. We have different convictions. My conviction is that Christ revealed all man can know of God.

Greg Boyd wrote something nice about this. I'll see if I can find it.

I keep having Deja-vu. So I thought I would share what I heard from a Creation-Evolution talk.

Data are facts. Everyone can look at the data. It is not up for dispute. However, everyone has underlying base assumptions. They use these assumptions to interpret the facts and come to different conclusions.


There have been cases of people changing their underlying base assumptions. But it is very difficult for them. It requires them to admit they were wrong. To themselves. But, it is possible. Some evolutionists have become, if not a believer in God, at least open to the idea of an intelligent designer. But there are many who ignore the facts, then attribute creationists to ignoring the facts. It all has to do with how one fits those facts into their base assumptions.

With evolutionists, their base assumptions permit them to not feel accountable to anyone besides themselves. However, as I have failed to find out, I do not know why someone would reject a "nice" view of God (I realize the words "loving and kind" has been rejected, but nothing has been suggested in it's place).

The only thing I can come up with is similar to when I was in grade school and some kids would be mean to me. I took great pleasure in the satisfaction of thinking God would make them suffer. I realize now, that is not a kind and loving thought.

been there, done that, until very recently. it has been dawning on me more and more that God is into saving everyone He can, including those that hurt me. which means He is not into "vengence". so that means my job is to figure out how to help Him.....

Amen, teresaq. Here's one of my favorite texts on vengeance:



How does God get His vengeance? By turning the other cheek, walking the second mile, giving His shirt; in short, by loving His enemies. In so doing He "heaps coals of fire on his head," and God calls on us to do the same. We participate in His vengeance by loving our enemies, by overcoming evil with good.