M: The Dark Ages did not end until some time after God raised up the Remnant Church.

T: As you can see [from the following quote], even considering Luther as a part of the Dark Ages is a stretch.

[quote]The Italian Scholar, Francesco Petrarca called Petrarch, was the first to coin the phrase. He used it to denounce Latin literature of that time; others expanded on this idea to express frustration with the lack of Latin literature during this time or other cultural achievements. While the term dark ages is no longer widely used, it may best be described as Early Middle Ages -- the period following the decline of Rome in the Western World. The Middle Ages is loosely considered to extend from 400 to 1000 AD. (http://www.allabouthistory.org/the-dark-ages.htm)

The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened. {GC 55.1}

The claim that men can hold intercourse with evil spirits is regarded as a fable of the Dark Ages. But spiritualism, which numbers its converts by hundreds of thousands, yea, by millions, which has made its way into scientific circles, which has invaded churches, and has found favor in legislative bodies, and even in the courts of kings-- this mammoth deception is but a revival, in a new disguise, of the witchcraft condemned and prohibited of old. {GC 556.2}

Thus the false science of the present day, which undermines faith in the Bible, will prove as successful in preparing the way for the acceptance of the papacy, with its pleasing forms, as did the withholding of knowledge in opening the way for its aggrandizement in the Dark Ages. {GC 572.3}

The Sunday movement is now making its way in darkness. The leaders are concealing the true issue, and many who unite in the movement do not themselves see whither the undercurrent is tending. . . . They are working in blindness. They do not see that if a Protestant government sacrifices the principles that have made them a free, independent nation, and through legislation brings into the Constitution principles that will propagate papal falsehood and papal delusion, they are plunging into the Roman horrors of the Dark Ages.--RH Extra, Dec. 11, 1888. {LDE 125.3}

The past--the history of the Jewish economy from beginning to the end--instead of being spoken of contemptuously and sneered at as "the dark ages," will reveal light, and still more light, as it is studied. {UL 96.4}

In our day, people talk of the dark ages, and boast of progress. But with this progress wickedness and crime do not decrease. We deplore the absence of natural simplicity, and the increase of artificial display. Health, strength, beauty, and long life, which were common in the so-called "Dark Ages," are rare now. Nearly everything desirable is sacrificed to meet the demands of fashionable life. {Te 147.1}

T: Of course people must repent. Repentance means a change of mind. Before seeing the cross, man is at enmity with God. One cannot become a member of God's family while being at enmity with Him. It's necessary to be reconciled, and repentance is necessary for reconciliation to take place.

M:You undermine her meaning by excluding a host of sins that were practiced prior to rebirth and insisting they are carried over into the new life. You are implying "the sins that have crucified the Saviour" do not include certain sinful habits and practices. She has never said anything that alludes to this interpretation. If she had, you would be quoting it repeatedly.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. (DA 175)

M: Please notice she specifies what she means by saying "the sins that have crucified the Saviour." I have no reason to believe she is excluding a subclass class of sins that did not crucify Jesus, that do not require repentance, that can wait to be revealed and confessed and crucified until some time after they experience rebirth.

T: Yes you do. You've already admitted that not every sin that one commits is included in this repentance, so you do see a reason to believe she is excluding a subclass of sins.

M:No I didn’t. Like 1 John 3:9 I believe Ellen is referring to believers who were thoroughly indoctrinated in obeying everything Jesus commanded. “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Do you also think Jesus intended for us to interpret His words here to mean certain sinful habits and practices will be continued afterward in the new life?

M: If she had written such a thing you would be quoting it over and over again.

T: I've quoted this over and over again, because it's clear, and describes conversion simply and accurately. There's no need to quote something else.

M:Really? Coming from someone who aggressively argues elsewhere we must take everything she wrote on a particular topic into consideration before arriving at hardcore conclusions, I’m surprised you feel this way here.

M: The Dark Ages did not end until some time after God raised up the Remnant Church.

T: As you can see [from the following quote], even considering Luther as a part of the Dark Ages is a stretch.

"The Italian Scholar, Francesco Petrarca called Petrarch, was the first to coin the phrase. He used it to denounce Latin literature of that time; others expanded on this idea to express frustration with the lack of Latin literature during this time or other cultural achievements. While the term dark ages is no longer widely used, it may best be described as Early Middle Ages -- the period following the decline of Rome in the Western World. The Middle Ages is loosely considered to extend from 400 to 1000 AD. (http://www.allabouthistory.org/the-dark-ages.htm)

M: Here's what I mean by Dark Ages:


"The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened." The dark ages, as it were, persist unto to this day. It denotes ignorance of certain truths. As such people who are baptized and join a church before learning to obey "everything Jesus commanded" are in darkness in those areas they did not learn.

T: The Dark Ages is a period of time, in which neither Ellen White, nor William Miller, nor Spurgeon lived (and arguably not Luther). You dismissed the counterexamples I gave to your theory of these people because they lived in the Dark Ages. This assertion of yours was incorrect; they didn't live in the Dark Ages.

M: Like 1 John 3:9 I believe Ellen is referring to believers who were thoroughly indoctrinated in obeying everything Jesus commanded. “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”

Do you also think Jesus intended for us to interpret His words here to mean certain sinful habits and practices will be continued afterward in the new life?

T: MM, she speaks of the "sins which have crucified the Savior." Are you saying this only includes the sins of people who were properly indoctrinated?

The article you posted above begins with the following line - "The Dark Ages as a term has undergone many evolutions; its definition depends on who is defining it." The author said Petrarch, who coined the phrase, "used it to denounce Latin literature of that time; others expanded on this idea to express frustration with the lack of Latin literature during this time or other cultural achievements."

But Ellen defined it differently. Here's how she used the label, "The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened." This darkness persists today. It denotes ignorance of certain truths. As such, people who are baptized and join a church before learning to how obey "everything Jesus commanded" are in darkness in those areas.

So, which dark age are you referring to - 1) Darkness as it relates to Latin literature, or 2) Darkness as it relates to saving truths?

I'm talking about one class of people, namely, people who were properly indoctrinated to obey everything Jesus commanded.

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3)

M: The article you posted above begins with the following line - "The Dark Ages as a term has undergone many evolutions; its definition depends on who is defining it." The author said Petrarch, who coined the phrase, "used it to denounce Latin literature of that time; others expanded on this idea to express frustration with the lack of Latin literature during this time or other cultural achievements."

T: No one defines it in a way that would include Spurgeon, Miller or White.

M: But Ellen defined it differently. Here's how she used the label, "The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened." This darkness persists today. It denotes ignorance of certain truths. As such, people who are baptized and join a church before learning to how obey "everything Jesus commanded" are in darkness in those areas.

T: She said the darkness persisted, not that the Dark Ages persisted. Ellen White never said she lived in the Dark Ages.

M: So, which dark age are you referring to - 1) Darkness as it relates to Latin literature, or 2) Darkness as it relates to saving truths?

T: The "Dark Ages" is a term which refers to a period of time which began when the Roman Church began its ascendancy. One could disagree as to when it ended, which is why I said one could make an argument as to whether or not Luther should be included, but there's no question that Ellen White, William Miller, and Charles Spurgeon did not live in the Dark Ages. This was the Industrial Age, which is after the Renaissance, which is after the Dark Ages.

T: You're alone in this. John wasn't speaking of a certain subclass of people, but was communicating truths that would stand the test of time. Regarding properly indoctrinated believers, not all sins that one can commit are things that a properly indoctrinated believer would necessarily come across. For example, a properly indoctrinated believe could unknowingly have erroneous views regarding God's character, presenting Him in a false light.

Given that the label "Dark Ages" has evolved into an ambiguous and undefinable time period, according to the author you quoted, it would be impossible to prove your point that "no one defines it in a way . . ."

The Industrial Revolution was a period in the late 18th and early 19th centuries when major changes in agriculture, manufacturing, production, and transportation had a profound effect on the socioeconomic and cultural conditions in Britain. The changes subsequently spread throughout Europe, North America, and eventually the world. The onset of the Industrial Revolution marked a major turning point in human society; almost every aspect of daily life was eventually influenced in some way. (wiki)

The dating of the "Dark Ages" has always been fluid, but the concept was originally intended to denote the entire period between the fall of Rome in the 5th century and the "Renaissance" or "rebirth" of classical values.

Tom, you seem to think people who have been taught how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded will still ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth. Is this what you believe? If not, then please explain what the experience of such people is like as it relates to the sinful habits they practiced ignorantly prior to rebirth. Thank you.

However, if you believe people who are obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded still ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth then I can understand why you would interpret 1 John 3 the way you do. I can see why you believe “doth not sin and cannot sin” (verse 9) obviously excludes a long list of sinful habits and practices.

Do you interpret all the other promises in the Bible that are like 1 John 3:9 to mean people are still ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth?

Or, do you know of any promises that mean what I believe, namely, that they are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, that, like Jesus, they are living without sinning?

6Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:6-8)

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3)