Kland, I am sorry you are struggling with my view of God. But rather than lamenting what I believe, I would prefer it if you would simply explain what you believe. For example, how do you explain the fact God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? How do you explain the fact God buried and burned the sinners named above?

What?

You said the view I've been presenting is "more flattering," and it's a view you agree with, some of the time. Since you only agree with it some of the time, the rest of the time you believe in a less flattering view of God. This is the point I made. I don't know what point you are making.



Yes it does. Here's your approach:

1.If the Bible says God did something "bad," then God did it.
2.Unless the SOP says otherwise.

I don't think this is a viable approach. To give examples of this, you wouldn't know that when Scripture says that God sent fiery serpents, that this really means that God withdrew His protection from the serpents that were already there. Or when Scripture says that God would destroy Jerusalem, this means that God withdrew His protection from them, as described in GC the first chapter. So you allow the SOP to interpret Scripture for you; without it, you're lost to know what was happening in Scripture.

What I believe is that the SOP communicated *principles* to us, so that *we*, armed with these principles, can interpret the Scriptures, without needing to rely on her for a case by case explanation of what's going on.

There's two approaches one can take, a principle-based one, or a case by case one.

Here's how what I cited from the SOP supports the principle-based approach. She wrote, "Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty....In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law."

This means that what happened in Jerusalem serves as a pattern for other events where certain punishment falls upon the guilty, and, in particular, as a pattern for the last day events.



God's being reluctant to destroy is not a case of His being "wishy-washy" but of His love for us.



This eloquently describes God's reluctance.



This also.



Obviously I'm aware of the fact that what I wrote is different than what you wrote, which I made known when I said, "I would make it broader and say it this way".

You didn't answer my question, which is if you see the broader way I put things as painting a poor picture of God. That is, this: "Circumstances forced God to withdraw His protection and permit death and destruction to come upon those who have rejected His mercy."



If God did not protect sinners from the consequences of their sins, they would die immediately, and not be able to choose to repent. God acts in a way to maximize freedom. He gives people the opportunity to choose, in as much as it is possible for Him to do so, between good and evil.

Regarding Job, I see the book of Job as dealing with the issue you raised in regards to Satan. If you don't see that, then we disagree.

Regarding Korah, here's what the Columbia encyclopedia has to say:



A google query of "Korah earthquake" turned up over 9,000 hits.

You seemed surprised that I would have such a thought, but it's actually quite a common thought.

Regarding the rebels, they claimed Moses and Aaron were acting as agents of Satan. They weren't. They were acting as agents of God, who withdrew His protection from Korah, resulting in His death.

Regarding the rest of what you wrote, I said this:



I don't see what's difficult to understand about this. No, I'm not saying that Satan directly caused an earthquake to occur, as you can note by the words, "Not directly."

Tom, when you quote uninspired sources to prove your point it does nothing to impress me to agree with you. Quoting such sources is a waste of time. It serves no purpose whatsoever. So why bother?

Also, you have yet to explain why God commanded His chosen people to kill sinners. You can argue all day long against what I believe but it is not the same as explaining what you believe. Don't you think it is time to explain it? In particular, please explain why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Thank you.

PS - Please don't tell me you've explained it dozens of times and then expect me to figure it out. Just spell it out clearly here and now. Thank you.

By reading and understanding the principles being communicated, a person might be led to understand the truth more clearly. That's my goal in citing the thing said. It's not by way of authority that I'm trying to convince you of something, but by way of truth, truth expressed as ideas.



If God has communicated truth to others, and others have communicated this truth to us, it should serve a purpose. It shouldn't be "a waste of time."

Truth is truth. It doesn't matter who says it. The Holy Spirit enables us to see and recognize truth.

Regarding your other question, I cited "The Ever-Loving Father." As I stated, I could not explain the principles better than that.

Whatever!!! I'm not going to beg you any more to state your position plainly. Game over!

Ok, MM. As I stated, I can't explain it more clearly than what I provided for you.

I have. And I have failed. Or you have rejected it. Either way, repeating what I've already said, would not be of benefit to you. If you are unable to see a clearly explained statement from Ellen White, how can we move on to more complex topics? Since I cannot be a benefit to you, I am trying to benefit from you. Others share your view and whether it is due to some unmet need or other motivation, I wish to understand why they, and you, take the view of God you do.


Mercy, mercy!


I went to a public school and some of the required readings were "1984" and "Brave New World". By any chance have you read those books?


God says He killed Saul. I say that you need to understand more and compare texts which say Saul fell on his sword. God killed Saul in that he didn't protect Saul anymore. But, did God directly kill Saul? You may say yes, or some other explanation. However, how do you explain the following?

From the afore quoted GC quote, pages 35-37:

Read the paragraph, in context, and tell me what you think Ellen White is saying here in those pages.

could i suggest that at first it can seem as pure heresy? i know when i first heard something along this line, given my mentality and background, it sounded good but so alien....

it is not something i studied into but picked up here and there. for instance, in reading romans this hit me:


this told me the homosexuals life was none of my business, and i didnt need to go around judging and condemning him, not that i was particularly inclined to do so, anyway, but i was hearing so much about them.

then i got lbm.orgs "lift Him up" series because im into prophecy, and read the "wrath of God" articles, which pointed at the verses that specifically stated how Gods wrath=God leaving people to the consequences of their decisions, regardless of how many times He said He did such and such. but, still i walked with care so-to-speak.

does God kill sometimes, or never? i dont really know. but i can see why a person would want to be careful in believing He never does, given the texts that would indicate He does without specific texts to the contrary in each situation.

then to make matters worse, because i am so used to a different way of thinking i can completely forget what i used to believe.

teresaq, thanks for sharing Romans 1:27, the part in red. This was new for me. Very nice thought!



Shades of Piaget! Yes, this is indeed a challenge. When our paradigm shifts, it changes how we perceive everything, making it difficult to remember how we used to perceive things. One of the more challenging things in trying to explain concepts is to get ourselves in somebody else's head, so to speak; that is, to understand their paradigm.

Kland, please hear me. Yes, I agree there are times when God withdraws His protection and permits sinners to suffer the consequences of their sins. But there are also other means and methods He employs to accomplish His will and purpose. For example, He commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Do you agree?