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Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Tom] #106282
12/19/08 05:00 PM
12/19/08 05:00 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
What does the fruit have to do with that? I understand that rebelling is bad. But why did eating the fruit kill them? What was wrong with the fruit?

As I explained:

Quote:
Satan misrepresented God's character, which deception led the first humans into rebellion. Rebellion is separation from God, which is lethal.

The believing a lie about God's character, leading to distrust of God and rebellion was what was lethal. The fruit was not poisonous.

Then what did the fruit have to do with it? How could eating the fruit constitute rebellion?

Anyway, let's continue this subtopic in the does God punish? thread.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106284
12/19/08 05:10 PM
12/19/08 05:10 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Arnold, are people supposed to feel foul and filthy while they are abiding in Jesus? Is there no respite from their sinful condition? Must they always view themselves as defective and disgusting?

A: Here's how inspiration tells us will be the experience of those after the close of probation: "So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. {GC 620.1}

Yes, it is true the 144,000 will pass through this experience. But this is a unique experience. It doesn't reflect what life is supposed to be like now or afterward. If so, none could endure it long enough to hold out until death or until Jesus returns. We're not to go around like that poor wretched soul in Pilgrim's Progress lamenting our wicked past. Nor are we to go around lamenting our wicked potential. While abiding in Jesus it is our privilege to revel in the joy of Jesus. Again, while abiding in Jesus, that is, while abiding in Jesus.

Isn't the spiritual experience of the 144k the highest human achievement this side of eternity? Or was there a higher point, then the 144k regress to a lower level?

But in any case, they do not go around lamenting their old sins, which they cannot remember, or their potential, which has not happened. However, they do see clearly their unworthiness, for they see clearly that Jesus is worthy.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: asygo] #106285
12/19/08 05:22 PM
12/19/08 05:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: I Am His
"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

That's an interesting quote. So, is such a person, clothed in Christ's righteousness, abiding in Jesus? WDYT, MM?

Indeed, this applies only to those who are abiding in Jesus! It also goes to show that God has a need to see us through "Jesus glasses", as Tom called it. God cannot simply "see us as we are" and be satisfied. Everything we think, say, and do must be purified and perfumed with the blood and righteousness of Jesus.

But "more than this", we must also consent and cooperate with the heavenly agencies and be perfect even as God is perfect. It is not enough for Jesus to cover our past sins with His blood and righteousness, we must also die to sin and awake to righteousness. We must abide in Jesus, we must walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we must partake of the divine nature, we must imitate the example of Jesus, we must be like Jesus! Listen:

Quote:
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}

QUESTION - Since the condition of eternal life is "perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness", doesn't this mean everyone who will be admitted to heaven will have "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression"? {HP 146.5} After all, "if eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled."

So, how can this apply to everyone who will be rewarded with eternal life? How can it apply to people like the thief on the cross, or the Gentiles Paul spoke about in Romans 2:13-15, or the savages Ellen wrote about in COL 385? In what have people like these "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression"?

Quote:
Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The "Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {COL 385.1}

In the day of final reckoning, Christ does not present before men the great work He has done for them in giving His life for their redemption. He presents before them the faithful work they have done for Him. What surpassing love is this! He even mentions the work of the heathen, who have no intelligent knowledge of the law of the Lord, but who have done the very things the law required, because they have heeded the voice speaking to them in the things of nature. When the Holy Spirit implants Christ's Spirit in the heart of the savage, and he befriends God's servants, the quickening of the heart's sympathy is contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The grace of God, working upon the darkened mind, has softened the savage nature untaught by the wisdom of men. . . . {SD 364.3}

Christ implants His grace in the heart of the savage, and he ministers to the necessity of the missionary, even before he has heard or comprehended the words of truth and life. Behold that crowd collected about God's servant to harm him! But the Lord is working upon the heart and mind of perhaps one man to plead in behalf of His servant; and when the war council has determined the destruction of the Christian's life, the intercession of that savage turns the decision, and his life is spared. O, the love that goes forth to the savage for this one act! To such Christ says, in the Judgment: "I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." {SD 364.4}

Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106286
12/19/08 05:28 PM
12/19/08 05:28 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: If they are so sinful and wretched why does the Bible describe them as clothed in fine linen? "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

A: They do have fine linen. But it is Christ's robe of righteousness, not theirs, that God looks at. Why? Because only His righteousness meets the perfect standard.

Why, then, does it say, "the fine linen is the righteousness of saints"?

It is theirs, because they get it from Christ. This robe has not in it one thread of human devising.

The righteous acts of the saints - their praise, their penitence, their prayers - are of no value to God unless purified by the merits of Jesus. It is not by righteous works which they have done that they are accepted, but by God's mercy.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106287
12/19/08 05:36 PM
12/19/08 05:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Isn't the spiritual experience of the 144k the highest human achievement this side of eternity?

I don't get that impression when I read about them in the SOP. Some of them barely make it by the skin of their teeth. True, their experience will be unique in that they will be the only humans to have ever endured the investigative judgment of the living, to have ever stood before God without benefit of the mediation of Jesus, and to have ever passed through Jacob's time of trouble and the great time of trouble. But the fact they will achieve perfection of Christian character is not unique to them. This experience has been available to everyone since the fall of A&E. Are you familiar with the SOP statements that make these points clear?

PS - Are you planning to address the rest of the comments and questions I posted? I hope so. I am truly interested in what you believe and why. Thank you.

Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106288
12/19/08 05:40 PM
12/19/08 05:40 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: I Am His
"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

That's an interesting quote. So, is such a person, clothed in Christ's righteousness, abiding in Jesus? WDYT, MM?

Indeed, this applies only to those who are abiding in Jesus! It also goes to show that God has a need to see us through "Jesus glasses", as Tom called it. God cannot simply "see us as we are" and be satisfied. Everything we think, say, and do must be purified and perfumed with the blood and righteousness of Jesus.

And this applies to those who are abiding in Jesus. Moreover, those who are abiding in Jesus still suffer from a "faulty character" as the quote says. That's why those who are abiding in Jesus see nothing to commend themselves, but trust in Christ's perfect righteousness.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
But "more than this", we must also consent and cooperate with the heavenly agencies and be perfect even as God is perfect.

Yes, we are to be perfect. But our perfection is not acceptable as is; it must be covered by Christ's blood.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
So, how can this apply to everyone who will be rewarded with eternal life? How can it apply to people like the thief on the cross, or the Gentiles Paul spoke about in Romans 2:13-15, or the savages Ellen wrote about in COL 385? In what have people like these "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression"?

It is the condition of sinlessness described in 1Jn 3:9. Those who are born of God do not and cannot sin. That applies to all who are born of God, whether a newbie or a veteran, a savage or a scholar. But it is a sinlessness that does not negate 1Jn 1:8, 10.

BTW, it is interesting that you brought up the SC passage. I am going to participate in a Steps to Christ series that we will do at our church over the next few months. It is the most exciting series I have ever done. Anyway, in order to prepare, I will "disappear" one of these days, and return in a couple of months.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106289
12/19/08 06:05 PM
12/19/08 06:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
It is theirs, because they get it from Christ. This robe has not in it one thread of human devising.

Amen! "The fine linen is the righteousness of saints." Yes, they attained unto such righteousness by beholding Jesus, by abiding in Him, by walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, by partaking of the divine nature, by being like Jesus. Each thread in the fine linen they wear is the result of cooperating with the heavenly agencies, the result of the blending of the human and the divine. Ellen articulated these truths in the following passage:

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

Over and over again she says the fruit of combining the sinful nature of man with the sinless nature of God is righteousness and true holiness. She compares such fruits with the fruits Jesus manifested while here in the flesh. Such fruit bearing is what the GC is all about.

The fact God can motivate and empower sinners to use their faculties of mind and body to manifest the fruit of Christ's righteousness is evidence Satan's accusations are untrue. The imputed righteousness of Christ, by itself, is insufficient to win the GC. The imparted, experiential righteousness of the saints is what seals Satan's fate and exonerates the kingdom and character of God. Listen:

Quote:
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}

We must receive in thoughts and in feelings, to give in expression. The law of the human and the divine action makes the receiver a laborer together with God. It brings man where he can, united with divinity, work the works of God. Humanity touches humanity. Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything. {FW 26.3}

He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}

Christ satisfied the demands of the law in His human nature. He bore the curse of the law for the sinner, made an atonement for him, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Genuine faith appropriates the righteousness of Christ, and the sinner is made an overcomer with Christ; for he is made a partaker of the divine nature, and thus divinity and humanity are combined. {FW 93.3}

Christ did not exchange His divinity for humanity, but combined humanity with divinity; and in humanity He lived the law in behalf of the human family. The sins of every one who will receive Christ were set to His account, and He has fully satisfied the justice of God. {FE 429.2}

"These things have I spoken unto you," the Saviour said, "that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full" (John 15: 11). The work of overcoming is not a joyless work; no, indeed. It means communication with Heaven. You can go to God in prayer; you can ask, and receive; you can believe, hanging your helpless soul on Christ. It means that humanity can work the will and ways of God. Humanity and divinity are combined for this very purpose. {HP 279.2}

Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106290
12/19/08 06:15 PM
12/19/08 06:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Yes, we are to be perfect. But our perfection is not acceptable as is; it must be covered by Christ's blood.

This is the crux of the question, eh! I have yet to read in the Bible or the SOP where this view of experiential righteousness is supported. I have read where such righteousness is the result of Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. But I have not read where it is unacceptable to the Father.

In my previous post I quoted Ellen comparing the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of saints. Both are of the same origin. Both are the result of combining sinful human nature and sinless divine nature. Most people are unwilling to say Jesus' righteousness was unacceptable to the Father, therefore, and for the same reasons, they should be able to say the righteousness of saints is also acceptable to the Father.

Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106292
12/19/08 06:21 PM
12/19/08 06:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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PS - Even the famous quote in 1SM 344 does not say the fruits of combining the human and divine natures yields righteousness which is unacceptable to God. Listen:

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2}

Re: Is this person saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #106293
12/19/08 06:43 PM
12/19/08 06:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: asygo
It is the condition of sinlessness described in 1Jn 3:9. Those who are born of God do not and cannot sin. That applies to all who are born of God, whether a newbie or a veteran, a savage or a scholar. But it is a sinlessness that does not negate 1Jn 1:8, 10.

Again, amen! However, I suspect you have a different interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 than I do. I suspect you, like others, take it to mean we can never be truly free from sin, that sin is so systemic that we will always, in one way or another, sin, and that this condition of sinfulness will continue to taint everything we do until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh with sinless flesh. Of course, this theory assumes sin is a state of doing as well as a state of being.

Are my suspicions of your interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 right, partially right, or totally off base?

Some people believe John implies in 1 John 1:6-10 that anyone who believes they have "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" (HP 146) is a liar and the truth is not in them. They assume John is saying nobody can be free from sin, this side of glory, since sin is also a state of being.

Whereas I believe, along many others, that John is simply saying "All have sinned", and that anybody who says they have never sinned in the past is a liar and the truth is not in them. This view assumes John was addressing Gnosticism. Ellen addresses John's concern in the following passage:

We are authorized to hold in the same estimation as did the beloved disciple those who claim to abide in Christ, to be sanctified, while living in transgression of God's law. He met with just such a class as we have to meet. He said, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning" (verses 7, 8). Here the apostle speaks in plain terms, as he deemed the subject demanded. {SL 68.2}

The epistles of John breathe a spirit of love. But when he comes in contact with that class who break the law of God and yet claim that they are living without sin, he does not hesitate to warn them of their fearful deception. "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 John 1:6-10). {SL 68.3}

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