This points out the danger I've been trying to show you. Your position has human understanding and reasoning as its foundation for obedience. If sinless man was a failure in this regard, so much more is sinful man.


It is a serious matter, but it is still a red herring because it is another matter. The thread has been, all along, about whether or not we should obey what God says, apart from our understanding His reasons for it. Now, you are switching topics to, the inability to discern God's voice among the many that we hear. Can't you see that it's a different topic.

If you want a new topic, I have no qualms. But this thread assumes that we already know God is the one giving us instructions. Given that, how much convincing do you need in order to obey? How much convincing does God require in order to expect you to obey?


It is also dangerous to rely on human wisdom as the final arbiter of what should and should not be done. Eve tried it, and it didn't work out so well.


Look at the part I underlined. His character has been established by reasonable evidence, at least for me it has. That alone is reason enough for me to trust Him implicitly, even with the "blind obedience" the SOP commends.

But you seem to argue that it is not enough. God has to convince you every time He tells you something, that He knows what He's doing. I hope you never run across a busy street.

For me, I hope it is because they know that I always have their best interests in mind, and that I know what's good for them better than they do.

I also do this with friends I trust. With those who are not my friends, I always make them explain to me before I make my final decision based on my own understanding of the situation.

i think the bolded is toms point. he can correct me if im way off base.

i dont think that knowing why, asking God why is always bad. i have gotten some pretty convicting reasons when ive asked. after a while there comes a point when i pretty much trust that what He asks is for my good, "such as turn the other cheek".

the 10 commandments can seem pretty cut and dried, and even tho i didnt actually ask why i shouldnt steal, i couldnt figure out why i should meditate on the commandments, as david says. one time i got irritated-i have a problem in that area-and thought, whats there to meditate on? dont steal, dont kill.....some time later i felt like God had said, Im glad you asked.

i saw how stealing and killing can go very deep and deeper still. i can steal peoples time, self-worth, among other things. i can kill bits of people by the way i treat them and etc.


see, i can use the caps, guys, for the important stuff. now you wouldnt want me to put the common on a par with God, would you?

This doesn't look to make any sense. I wrote "If they understood it was wrong, then they could obey with understanding." and you conclude from this that this points out the danger you've been trying to show me? How so? What's the danger in what I wrote? Or, better yet, how do you get from "If they understood it was wrong, then they could obey with understanding" to "Your position has human understanding and reasoning as its foundation for obedience."

Anyway, this hasn't been what I've been saying at all. You'll see that in all the threads that we've been conversing in that I've pointed out that:

a)Satan desired to exalt himself.
b)To do so, he misrepresented God.
c)Thus he deceived man, leading him to distrust God.
d)This led man into disobedience and rebellion.

The counter side to this is:

a)Man must know the truth about God.
b)This leads man to have faith in God.
c)Which leads to obedience.

Thus faith is the foundation for obedience, which is itself built upon an understanding of God's character.



It's part of the same matter; it's part of the same discussion. I've been discussing why understanding and reason are important to obey God in a way that He desires.



Here's a red herring! I've not suggested this.



She should have believed the serpent's lies. She should have trusted God.



It's not enough for God. Jesus said:



You keep framing this as if I were saying it's not enough for us to trust God implicitly and do whatever He says without understanding why, but I've not framed the issue in this way. I've consistently pointed out I don't believe this is what *God* desires.

Jesus above says that He calls us not servants but friends. Why? Because He has informed us of what His Father is doing. This looks to me to be exactly what the SOP tells us. God wants us to have an intelligent, well-reasoned faith, based on evidence and sound arguments, that we may be able to give a reason for what we believe. For example:



Because "God said so," is not a sufficient argument. Anyone can present this argument to defend the actions of anything one does.



The issue has not to do with God's competence, but with His character. What is God like? Does He desire a slavish obedience, once that is based not on reason or evidence?

Just a quickie for now....


I've been saying that it's about His character. I believe that, based on His character, He would never tell me to do something that I would not do voluntarily if I knew what He knew and was as holy as He is holy. And that applies across the board.

You seem to be saying that you think God wants to convince you of His character every time out. How would you like it if you had to convince your kids of your good intentions every time you told them something? Is that how a father wants to be treated? As a father, I don't.

How about your wife? Do you always have to convince her that you love her whenever you tell her something?

What I've been saying is that God does not desire a slavish obedience, that because of His character He wants us to obey Him on the basis of evidence and reason. Jesus said we are "not friends, but servants," because He has informed us of what God does. I understand this to be the same principle of obedience based on evidence and reason, as opposed to the obedience of a servant (i.e. slavish obedience).

I'm not disagreeing with the concept that because we trust God, that we should be willing to do what He says just based on His say so. I'm disagreeing with the idea that this is something God would wish to do.

My children obeyed me because they trusted my judgment. Plus, they knew I had their best interest at heart. We were best friends. I never punished them out of anger or lost my cool around them. Of course, I have Jesus to thank for that. To this day (my children are adults with children of their own), they trust my judgment and know I love them dearly.

I'm sorry things weren't so good with your dad. I can relate. My parents orphaned us because they didn't enjoy being responsible for three energetic boys. Things are okay now, but the loss hurts just the same, especially since neither one of them get it. How are you doing now?

we "obeyed" because if we didnt we would be beat. but i wont say that we really obeyed.

i have a somewhat similar story. hopefully, ive been growing up.

it seems like ive had so many lifetimes, that that is just one. mostly i was angry when i thought of it. i guess there were times when it hurt, but i cant say it does much anymore. for one thing its over. they cant do that anymore. i dont know, it just doesnt seem to hurt anymore.

First of all, you didn't answer my question. Here they are again:

The point is - The commandment to rest on the seventh day is based on, Because I rested on the seventh day, rather than on an elaborate explanation.

The question is - Do these verses require "slavish" obedience since they do not contain "better" reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day? NOTE: The passage in Genesis is all people had for 2500 years. It could be argued that people also understood the commandment as it reads in Exodus 20:8-11. even the post-exilic passages you cited do not provide significantly better reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day. That is, referring to it as a "sign" isn't an improvement on the original reason given, namely, because it's the day God rested on.

---

Now, as to your first question. Jesus said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." Obviously, the kind of friendship Jesus is referring to isn't an ordinary friendship. How can it be? Jesus is, after all, God, and we're only human, and sinful to boot. My earthly friendships are not predicated on doing whatever they command me to do.

Jesus also said, "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." This must be understood in a limited sense, because obviously Jesus didn't tell them everything His Father told Him.

For example, Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." He left it to the Holy Spirit to explain certain things to the disciples later on. But not even the Holy Spirit could tell them everything. Elsewhere we read, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

"Henceforth I call you not servants." Even this statement must be understood in a limited sense. Jesus also said, "He that is greatest among you shall be your servant. If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Well done, thou good and faithful servant . . . enter thou into the joy of thy lord. The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."

There is also the fact the disciples and apostles referred to themselves as servants. For example, "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ. Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."

"For the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth." Again, this statement must be understood in a limited sense. Jesus also said, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." Obviously this servant was in the know. Nevertheless, he didn't obey his master. The end of such servants is less than desirable. "Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

So, what did Jesus mean when He said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Again, I believe it must be understood within the immediate context. Here it is:


This is the context of the statement, "All things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Especially, the following is what Jesus told them:

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

This is what it takes to be Jesus' friend. But being His friend does not mean we stop being His servant. He will always be our Lord and Master, and we will always be His servants and friends.

---

And, regarding your second question. "What is 'a slavish obedience,' as spoken of here?" It means doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons. It means obeying the rules begrudgingly, not as a cheerful giver. In reality, though, all such obedience is offensive to God. It does not flow out of a heart of love and adoration for God. For example:

"God loveth a cheerful giver," and those who love Him will give freely and cheerfully when by so doing they can advance His cause and promote His glory. The Lord never requires His people to offer more than they are able, but according to their ability He is pleased to accept and bless their thank offerings. Let willing obedience and pure love bind upon the altar every offering that is made to God; for with such sacrifices He is well pleased, while those that are offered grudgingly are an offense to Him. {5T 269.2}

Arnold isn't arguing we should be "willing" to obey; instead, he is saying we should obey Him, that God expects such obedience. Remember, God is in a position where He cannot tell us everything He knows. We are too dense and dimwitted. So, He is often forced to command us to obey Him without providing better reasons than, Because I said so; or, You're just going to have to trust me on this one.