MM was essentially saying, "God doesn't tell us everything that He could because we are too dumb. And sometimes we have to trust that He knows what He's doing even if we don't."

Were you agreeing with MM? It seemed to me that you were contradicting him by pointing out that Jesus wasn't too dumb. Am I right so far? Then, in this context, you throw in His statement that "all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."

MM said God knew stuff that He didn't tell the disciples. Are you agreeing with that or not?

T:Also I have not taught what you are suggesting. What I have said is that God does not desire a slavish obedience, but rather one based on evidence, reason and understanding.

A:Slavish obedience is bad, we agree. What I'm taking issue with is the concept that taking God at His word because we trust His goodness and wisdom, and distrust our own competence, constitutes slavish obedience.

What I'm taking issue with is the teaching that God thinks it is good that we question His character, and make Him explain Himself every time He gives a command.

I don't want my children doing that; and I don't think God wants His children doing that.

T: it seems like ive had so many lifetimes, that that is just one. mostly i was angry when i thought of it. i guess there were times when it hurt, but i cant say it does much anymore. for one thing its over. they cant do that anymore. i dont know, it just doesnt seem to hurt anymore.

M: As a pastor, I have counseled many precious souls in a similar state as you seem to be in. Let me just say - There are good reasons to fear not hurting anymore. It is usually a bad sign. It can mean important things are in danger of dying in you, things you desperately don't want to lose. I nearly died inside because I mishandled the hurt. But, thank you Jesus, I was able to recover.

T: hmmmmm, i didnt realize anyone would come to that conclusion. i believe it doesnt hurt anymore for a variety of reasons. one because i understand somewhat of their circumstances, and another because i have forgiven them and only want their best.

T:I'm not disagreeing with the concept that because we trust God, that we should be willing to do what He says just based on His say so. I'm disagreeing with the idea that this is something God would wish to do.

M:Arnold isn't arguing we should be "willing" to obey; instead, he is saying we should obey Him, that God expects such obedience.

T: You're suggesting I'm saying we should be willing to obey but not actually obey? I'm not understanding why you felt compelled to comment here.

M: Remember, God is in a position where He cannot tell us everything He knows. We are too dense and dimwitted. So, He is often forced to command us to obey Him without providing better reasons than, Because I said so; or, You're just going to have to trust me on this one.

T: Jesus said: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.(John 15:15)

Jesus wasn't dense or dimwitted, so God was able to communicate fine to Him, right? Jesus says He has called us "friends" because "all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."

Where did Jesus say we should obey Him (or the Father) because "I said so." (or "He said so.")? This seems to be diametrically opposed to what Jesus is saying in John 15:15.

This hasn't been suggested either.

M: First of all, you didn't address my point or answer my question. Here they are again:

The point is - The commandment to rest on the seventh day is based on, Because I rested on the seventh day, rather than on an elaborate explanation.

The question is - Do these verses require "slavish" obedience since they do not contain "better" reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day? NOTE: The passage in Genesis is the only command people had for 2500 years. It could be argued that people also understood the commandment as it reads in Exodus 20:8-11. Even the post-exilic passages you cited do not provide significantly better reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day. That is, referring to it as a "sign" isn't an improvement on the original reason given, namely, because it's the day God rested on.

T: As I pointed out, there are several reasons given for keeping the Sabbath. The foundation of observing the Sabbath is that God rested on this day, the crowning act of creation. The Sabbath is a memorial of creation, and its observance recognizes God as the Creator.

It's also a memorial of redemption, a them which is explained in detail in Hebrews. By faith we enter into the rest of God, which is what the Sabbath is all about. The Sabbath is also the seal of God and a sign of sanctification. This is just scratching the service!

M: Now, as to your first question. Jesus said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." Obviously, the kind of friendship Jesus is referring to isn't an ordinary friendship. How can it be? Jesus is, after all, God, and we're only human, and sinful to boot. My earthly friendships are not predicated on doing whatever they command me to do.

Jesus also said, "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." This must be understood in a limited sense, because obviously Jesus didn't tell them everything His Father told Him.

For example, Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." He left it to the Holy Spirit to explain certain things to the disciples later on. But not even the Holy Spirit could tell them everything. Elsewhere we read, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

"Henceforth I call you not servants." Even this statement must be understood in a limited sense. Jesus also said, "He that is greatest among you shall be your servant. If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Well done, thou good and faithful servant . . . enter thou into the joy of thy lord. The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."

There is also the fact the disciples and apostles referred to themselves as servants. For example, "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ. Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."

"For the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth." Again, this statement must be understood in a limited sense. Jesus also said, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." Obviously this servant was in the know. Nevertheless, he didn't obey his master. The end of such servants is less than desirable. "Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

So, what did Jesus mean when He said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Again, I believe it must be understood within the immediate context. Here it is: [John 15:1-17 quoted]

This is the context of the statement, "All things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Especially, Jesus made known to them the following:

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

This is what it takes to be Jesus' friend. But being His friend does not mean we stop being His servant. He will always be our Lord and Master, and we will always be His servants and friends.

T: MM, I hear you saying:

1.Jesus calls us friends if we do what He commands. (agreed)
2.Being His friend does not mean we stop being His servant.

However, regarding the second point, I still don't understand what you think Jesus meant by saying He no longer calls us servants but friends because He has told us all things He heard from His Father. Jesus makes two points here:

a.He calls us not servants, but friends.
b.His reason for doing this is because He has made known to us all things He heard from His Father.

You seem to be denying both of Jesus' points. Surely by saying "not servants but friends," Jesus did not mean "both servants and friends." He must have had something in mind in making this distinction. What was it?

He tells us what it is. "A servant does not know what his master is doing." That's the different. He calls us not servants but friends because He has told us what God revealed to Him, so that it cannot be said that we don't know what the master is doing, unlike the ignorant servant. Clearly this is Jesus' point, isn't it?

Those who live in close fellowship with Christ will be promoted by Him to positions of trust. The servant who does the best he can for his Master is admitted to familiar intercourse with the One whose commands he loves to obey. In the faithful discharge of duty we may become one with Christ, for those who are obeying God's commands may speak to Him freely. The one who talks most familiarly with his divine leader has the most exalted conception of His greatness and is the most obedient to His commands. {TMK 296.2}

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. . . . Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth; but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." . . . {TMK 296.3}

The character of the one who comes to God in faith will bear witness that the Saviour has entered into his life, directing all, pervading all. Such a one is continually asking, "Is this Thy will and way, O my Saviour?" Constantly he looks to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of his faith. He consults the will of his divine Friend in reference to all his actions, for he knows that in this confidence is his strength. He has made it a habit to lift up the heart to God in every perplexity. . . . {TMK 296.4}

M: And, regarding your second question. "What is 'a slavish obedience,' as spoken of here?" It means doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons. It means obeying the rules begrudgingly, not as a cheerful giver. In reality, though, all such obedience is offensive to God. It does not flow out of a heart of love and adoration for God. For example:

"God loveth a cheerful giver," and those who love Him will give freely and cheerfully when by so doing they can advance His cause and promote His glory. The Lord never requires His people to offer more than they are able, but according to their ability He is pleased to accept and bless their thank offerings. Let willing obedience and pure love bind upon the altar every offering that is made to God; for with such sacrifices He is well pleased, while those that are offered grudgingly are an offense to Him. {5T 269.2}

T: MM, I agree that our obedience to God should not be egocentric, I point I've often made to you in our discussions regarding sins of ignorance, and I also agree that the points your are mentioning are elements of what slavish obedience encompasses. However, it is not what EGW is dealing with in the context of the statement I quoted, which is the following:


What she brings out here is that slavish obedience is in contrast to intelligent appreciation. These, by the way, are the differences of the Old and New Covenants.


The Old Covenant consists of a slavish obedience to laws written on stone, which is why it "gendereth to bondage." In the New Covenant the law is written in the heart, and one is constrained to obey by the agape of God, revealed in the cross of Calvary (which agrees with the 5T 269.2 quote you pointed out).

MM said that God didn't communicate everything that He could communicate because of dimwittedness. Therefore if there are things which were not being communicated by God, the reason for this is being dimwitted. Jesus said He told us "all things that I have heard from my Father." So everything that God communicated to Jesus, Jesus communicated to the disciples. I pointed out that Jesus wasn't too dimwitted to hear things from God. The communication was God ==> Jesus ==> disciples. Since Jesus communicated all things He heard to the disciples, if God was holding things back, He had to have been holding them back from Jesus.

There was even a time when I thought I was over the hurt. But I was only hardening my heart making matters worse. Now I welcome the pain.

Tom, you are taking Jesus' words out of context and applying it to everything. Moments afterward Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." How do you reconcile what you believe with what Jesus said here?

15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

A:What I'm taking issue with is the teaching that God thinks it is good that we question His character, and make Him explain Himself every time He gives a command.

T:This hasn't been suggested either.

A:Perhaps I misunderstood you. Let me try to understand.

If God gave a command, e.g. keep the seventh day holy, and I could see no good reason for it other than God says I should do it, should I immediately do as He says or disregard it until I see a reason?

You didn't answer my question. Here it is again: Do these verses require "slavish" obedience since they do not contain "better" reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day? NOTE: The passage in Genesis is the only thing people had for 2500 years.

It could be argued that people also understood the commandment as it reads in Exodus 20:8-11. Did these people render slavish obedience?

T:The Old Covenant consists of a slavish obedience to laws written on stone, which is why it "gendereth to bondage." In the New Covenant the law is written in the heart, and one is constrained to obey by the agape of God, revealed in the cross of Calvary (which agrees with the 5T 269.2 quote you pointed out).

M:I, too, agree with the points you raised here, except I do not agree that obeying God for less than optimum reasons constitutes slavish obedience.

I do not agree with you that obeying God based on reasons no better than, Because I said so, is slavish obedience.

All true obedience springs forth from a heart wherein the Holy Spirit dwells triumphantly even when such obedience has a foundation no better than, Because I said so.

The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given.(SC 43)