PS - Tom, please resist the temptation to simply reject what I said about what you believe, and focus on how I always misrepresent your view, and then walk away from the discussion without setting the record straight. If I have misrepresented what you believe, then, please, by all means, take the time to clearly spell out what you do believe. Do not waste time complaining how I never quote anything you actually say, and then take up precious space and time instructing me in the fine art of discussing the truth. Blah, blah, blah. If you clearly spell out your view here and now I will never have to guess again what you believe. Please, Tom, just state your position clearly once and forever. Let it be your Christmas present to this forum.

You think my idea is that God compromised the truth to accommodate the perverted desires of sinners?



Am I wrong? Ellen White wrote:



Am I wrong to believe this?



It appears you are presenting an argument that it is not true that Christ revealed all we can know of God. Is this correct?



This is a flat out lie.



I think kland explained things well with his analogy of creationism and evolutionism. Both people look at the same data and interpret it according to their paradigm.

You have a paradigm which incorporates seeing God in a certain way. Because you see God the way you do, you see Him as capable of performing certain actions, such as burning people alive to make them pay for their sins, which others, including myself, do not believe God to be capable of.

Ellen White counseled us to do the same thing with her writings as we should to with Scripture, which is to compare what she has written in one place with what she has written in another. I read the first chapter of "The Great Controversy," which is by far the most detailed account of how God destroys, and do as she suggested, comparing other things she wrote taking that into account. I see that chapter as laying out broad principles of how destruction works:

a.There are powerful destructive forces from which God protects us.
b.When the Spirit of God is persistently resisted and spurned, eventually God gives the rebel up, withdrawing His protection.

You don't see this as a general principle, but as simply one of the ways God destroys. He might choose this way to destroy, or might choose some other way.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The SOP tells us that the Lord is the restorer, and Satan is the destroyer. You have no qualms about having God be the destroyer. My paradigm doesn't allow for this; I'm constrained to agree with the SOP's pronouncement that Satan is the destroyer, and the Lord the restorer.

So basically our differences come down to our having very different perspectives as to God's character. I see God's character as being like Jesus Christ's when He dwelt with us in the flesh. Jesus Christ washed the feet of His disciples. He was humble, and a servant. I see God this way.

When Jesus Christ was urged to destroy those with fire who would reject Him, He rebuked the suggestion, saying those suggested it did not know of what spirit they were. I see God this way.

When Jesus Christ was threatened with violence, rather than overcoming it with greater violence, He submitted to it. I find it unbelievable that God could be like this, but there you have it; God in the flesh did this very thing.

When Jesus Christ was spit upon, mocked, tortured, He prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I see God like this.

It's not simply that Jesus Christ when here in the flesh did not do certain things, like kill people or command that they be killed. It's that He presented a broad portrait of what God is like. Jesus Christ revealed God's character. From seeing what Jesus Christ was like, we see what God is like. From knowing Christ, we get an idea as to what sorts of things God is and is not capable of doing.

Thank you for sharing this important discussion. I struggled with this for many years and yet I still find myself going to the other camp when presented with scriptures that seems to paint God as a destroyer to bring justice or "punish" us. I believe my sins makes me view and read things this way. Notice EGW says "sinners are simply incapable of comprehending... "His Strange acts""

I really appreciate the points, SOP, scriptures brought here and helped me go back to Jn 3:16.

I didn't read the whole thread and most of these posts on this forum, so please forgive me if I repeat things that has already been discuss, but I would like to share some personal thoughts (other than our guilt comdemning us) about why it's so hard for us to understand :

1. Accountability Language: God takes responsibility of sin because he is the creator and created the angels and man with freedom of choice. Therefore, at times in the Bible God speaks in such a way that denote that accountability. For example, He said he hardened Pharaoh's heart(Ex 9:12; 10:1,20, 27), but in reality we know that Pharaoh hardened his own heart(Ex 8:15, 32; 9:34; 11:9). So we see this language at various places in the Bible.

2. His omniscient(all knowing, foreknowledge of future): Because of this foreknowledge of sin and events, He uses another form of language denoting this like in Ex 10:1-2. It is a form of warning so we can exercise our power of choice. Despite his foreknowledge of events, He doesn’t use it to control our power of choice for selfish reason like to keep Himself on the throne, but uses it to insure that His universe will be an everlasting harmonious and wonderful place for all His children. His perfect ways of dealing with sin with the cross being at the center of it will be for us an everlasting study.


3. He allows judgment to come from different sources : for example he calls Nebuchadnezzar his servant because His judgment came through him. Somewhere in the Bible which I can’t locate where he calls Lucifer his servant also for the same reason, to bring Judgment. Isn’t God’s Judgment already pronounce before he created the worlds? That whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life….He that doesn’t believe, is already judged... John 3:16,18. I believe God reluctantly withdraws his protection(often warns before hand many time what's coming ahead to give us a chance to exercise our power of choice) and allows our enemies, natural disasters, course of events to take it’s course, which is often referred in the Bible as God’s Judgment. Again, it is a dimension of accountability, foreknowledge, and warning language employed to let us know what's coming.


4. This one is quite fascinating to me in regards the choice of word God uses to describes the destruction of Satan :

This is the way I understand this: God holds all our being together(molecules, protons, neutrons, quartz, etc…) These maintained high forces baffle physicist because it breaks the law of entropy(energy disperse over time)but we know from Col 1:17 that Jesus holds all things together. At the end of the millennium, those who choose not to be with God, Jesus will grant their request and withdraw his power in holding their being together. The tremendous release of energy from all the different levels of forces(at the level of protons and neutrons of all matter, theirs even more forces that holds quartz together that compose the neutrons and protons, and any other forces that holds our being together will be released)will be like fire. As far as I see it, that day the destruction will come "from the midst of" their(the rebellious) being.

Q: Any thoughts for why God uses words like "thrown in the lake of fire"?

I believe we need to paint many Bible texts talking about destructions with the blood of Jesus to behold God's true character and not let our sins fashion a false image.

Great thoughts, Elle! I think I see your second point differently than you do, but I see the other points as you have laid out. I really, really liked this insight:



Tremendous insight! I think this is exactly right.

Our own characters filter how we see God's character.

your last point was really good, elle.

i think one thing we forget-i know i do-is how long it takes to go from one way of thinking to another. put on top of that our often faulty, lacking way of getting the point across....
what may seem so clear to us, or to the other side, is just foggy nonsense to someone else.

sometimes we forget to wait on the Lord. i know i do.

What do you believe in relation to this quote? Please answer the following questions in relation to this quote:

1. Is it God's will and purpose?
2. Does God cause it to happen?
3. Is it an evidence of God's power?
4. Does God do it to cause people to tremble before Him?

And, another question: Did Jesus ever do it while here in the flesh?

Please answer these questions as thoroughly as you can. Thank you.

does God punish or discipline?

what would be the ideal in our penal system? to punish, or to get criminals to not want to be criminals? do we want to get even with them for what they did? or would the ideal be to motivate them into different more constructive behavior?

Elle, Tom was quoting me not Ellen White. Sorry for the confusion. But I agree that in our present, earthly, unglorified state we are incapable of understanding how a loving, compassionate heavenly Father can employ various means and methods to punish and destroy impenitent sinners. It truly is a "strange act".

I also agree with you that God's foreknowledge enables Him to manage the outcome of the great controversy in a way that does not infringe upon the freedoms of free moral agents. For example, Pharaoh's heart was already hardened when God called Moses to deliver the children of Israel. And He managed the hardness of his heart so as to maximize Israel's success in wresting the Promised Land from the Canaanites.

This required God doing "strange" things to impress the world with His power and goodness. However, God also knew Israel would fail to fulfill their purpose as His chosen people. But His management of things also serve to instruct us today. "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Nothing God does is wasted. His interaction with sinners and saints as recorded in the Bible was designed to best serve not only those who played a part but also those of us who read it and learn about God. And one of the things we learn about God is the fact circumstances often forced Him to resort to extreme measures. Such things are so unlike God that it seems He is at a loss for words to explain it to us. So He simply refers to it as His "strange act".

It makes me feel sorry for God. I wish everyone would love and obey God so He can put this mess behind Him. No one is looking more forward to the restoration of paradise than is God. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

I believe God does both, that is, sometimes circumstances force Him to punish and destroy (e.g. the Flood), whereas sometimes He is able to discipline and restore (e.g. King David).

Also, so far as human systems are concerned, it depends on the offense. In cases where discipline would result in criminals becoming law abiding citizens then such action is desirable. However, in cases where capital punishment is appropriate it serves to motivate others to obey the law.

My thinking on this subject took probably 30 years to develop. It's still developing.



This is a good point. When we're dealing with a shift in paradigm, that's always tricky. First of all, it's difficult in general to shift one's paradigm. Secondly, sometimes one way of explaining things will work, when another doesn't work at all. Jesus Christ was a master of knowing just the right thing to say. Christ's parable to Simon as his feast is a wonderful example of this.

Hopefully these discussions will help us improve our ability to communicate.