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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: Tom]
#106498
12/24/08 10:20 PM
12/24/08 10:20 PM
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A:What I'm taking issue with is the teaching that God thinks it is good that we question His character, and make Him explain Himself every time He gives a command.
T:This hasn't been suggested either.
A:Perhaps I misunderstood you. Let me try to understand.
If God gave a command, e.g. keep the seventh day holy, and I could see no good reason for it other than God says I should do it, should I immediately do as He says or disregard it until I see a reason? I've been saying I don't think God would do this, because He does not desire a slavish obedience, but one based on evidence, which involves one's reason, and understanding. I was afraid you would say that, but I'm not surprised that you did. You don't think God can tell us something that is beyond our ability to comprehend? If you believe that you will always see a good reason for God's commands, you have more faith in your abilities than I do in mine and Abraham's. And it looks like I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. I have a revival series to attend to; maybe we can pick this up again in a few months. BTW, I used to think highly of my own ability to understand God's words and commands also. Fatherhood cured me of that really fast. Commands and counsel that I felt safe to disregard because I saw no reason for them, suddenly made perfect sense. I have since learned to trust God more implicitly.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: asygo]
#106503
12/24/08 11:06 PM
12/24/08 11:06 PM
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You don't think God can tell us something that is beyond our ability to comprehend? No, this isn't what I said. What I said is I believe God does not desire a slavish obedience, but one based on evidence, which involves one's reason, and understanding. If you believe that you will always see a good reason for God's commands, you have more faith in your abilities than I do in mine and Abraham's. And it looks like I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. Well since I don't believe what you're suggesting, this seems moot. I have a revival series to attend to; maybe we can pick this up again in a few months.
BTW, I used to think highly of my own ability to understand God's words and commands also. I wonder if you can have a post that doesn't have insults in it. It's Christmas Eve. How about some good cheer?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: Tom]
#106506
12/25/08 12:43 AM
12/25/08 12:43 AM
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I did not mean to insult you. I was just stating an unfortunate fact. I thought I was "all that," but I wasn't. Fatherhood tends to open one's eyes to one's shortcomings. Even Enoch learned a few things when he became a father. BTW, this was my question: If God gave a command, e.g. keep the seventh day holy, and I could see no good reason for it other than God says I should do it, should I immediately do as He says or disregard it until I see a reason? To which you replied, "I don't think God would do this..." IOW, you don't think God would give a command to which I could see no reason. You keep talking about what you believe God desires, but it all boils down to your ability to see the reason for it, because you don't think God will give you a command that is beyond your ability to find a reason for. If your obedience is dependent on your ability to find an acceptable reason, it is assent, not submission.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: asygo]
#106508
12/25/08 01:23 AM
12/25/08 01:23 AM
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The insult was in the word "also." If you had left that out, then you would have been simply stating "an unfortunate fact." Regarding your question: If God gave a command, e.g. keep the seventh day holy, and I could see no good reason for it other than God says I should do it, should I immediately do as He says or disregard it until I see a reason? If you don't see the reason, how do you know it's a command? For example, how do you know that the Sabbath wasn't done away with, as so many think, unless you investigate the issue? Or that is was changed for Sunday? You keep talking about what you believe God desires, but it all boils down to your ability to see the reason for it, because you don't think God will give you a command that is beyond your ability to find a reason for. I don't see how the idea that God does not desire a slavish obedience, which is not based on evidence, reason, or understanding, why this would boil down to me and not God. If God doesn't desire such obedience, doesn't it behoove Him to provide evidence? From my reading of the SOP, this is something God "always" does; that is, He doesn't ask us to believe without providing sufficient evidence for that belief. This shouldn't be taken to mean that God will provide overwhelming evidence that would knock away any possible objection -- we will always have hooks available upon which to hang our doubts -- but God will provide enough evidence upon which a well-reasoned, intelligent decision can be made. This is really a question of God's character, not of me or my willingness to do something. I've made no statements regarding my willingness or unwillingness to obey. If your obedience is dependent on your ability to find an acceptable reason, it is assent, not submission. If you mean dependent at all, I disagree, as I think such obedience, which is completely divorced from understanding, evidence, or reason, is exactly what comprises a slavish obedience, which God does not desire. I believe God desires intelligent, willful obedience, based on an investigation of the evidence He has provided. If you mean dependent only upon this, then this is something I haven't been suggesting. I've been suggesting reason, evidence and understand are involved in obedience, but not that these are the only factors.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: Tom]
#106512
12/25/08 04:21 AM
12/25/08 04:21 AM
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The insult was in the word "also." If you had left that out, then you would have been simply stating "an unfortunate fact." Unfortunately, I was stating it about both of us. But if you don't think I have assessed your position properly, given that you have chosen to leave out certain pieces of info, then feel free to ignore it. But in any case, iron sharpens iron, and it's not always a picnic. Regarding your question: If God gave a command, e.g. keep the seventh day holy, and I could see no good reason for it other than God says I should do it, should I immediately do as He says or disregard it until I see a reason? If you don't see the reason, how do you know it's a command? For example, how do you know that the Sabbath wasn't done away with, as so many think, unless you investigate the issue? Or that is was changed for Sunday? ... This shouldn't be taken to mean that God will provide overwhelming evidence that would knock away any possible objection -- we will always have hooks available upon which to hang our doubts -- but God will provide enough evidence upon which a well-reasoned, intelligent decision can be made. You say that your position shouldn't be taken as God removing every possible hook to hang doubts on. But when I give a specific example, you use every conceivable hook, even hypothetical ones, to justify failure to obey. Look at the excuses you gave. I presented the situation where God tells you to keep the seventh day. Then you come up with some hooks: 1) maybe it wasn't really a command 2) maybe it was done away with, notwithstanding that God just told you to do it 3) maybe it was changed Remember I mentioned once that you remind me of my 10-year-old? She does the same thing when she doesn't want to obey a plainly stated command - she comes up with a list of possible reasons why she doesn't have to obey. Fold clothes? What clothes? I have a lot of clothes. Which do you mean? Oh, the ones I just got out of the dryer?
Why didn't I clear the table? I thought you changed your mind because you went to your room. I didn't know I was supposed to clear off the dishes, too. My brother usually does that.My father does the same thing about a host of plain commands. I guess it runs in the family. I deal with this quite a bit. I can spot it a mile away. But you know what I tell my daughter? Obey the light you have, then you'll be prepared for more light. There will always be hooks to hang your doubt on. Don't let that lead you into disobedience. You keep talking about what you believe God desires, but it all boils down to your ability to see the reason for it, because you don't think God will give you a command that is beyond your ability to find a reason for. I don't see how the idea that God does not desire a slavish obedience, which is not based on evidence, reason, or understanding, why this would boil down to me and not God. If God doesn't desire such obedience, doesn't it behoove Him to provide evidence? From my reading of the SOP, this is something God "always" does; that is, He doesn't ask us to believe without providing sufficient evidence for that belief. Yes, God always provides a reason. What I've been trying to point out to you, but you seem unable to accept, is that sometimes we are just too dumb to understand it. That's why you come across as having an unwarranted amount of confidence in your own abilities. God always provides a reason. I believe that sometimes we are too dense to "get it" and we just have to take God at His word. But you keep disagreeing with me on that. That's why I said it boils down to you. This is really a question of God's character, not of me or my willingness to do something. I've made no statements regarding my willingness or unwillingness to obey. But you have said that if someone doesn't see any good reason to obey God's commands, they should not obey. That's not about God's character; that's about the rebel's. If your obedience is dependent on your ability to find an acceptable reason, it is assent, not submission. If you mean dependent at all, I disagree, as I think such obedience, which is completely divorced from understanding, evidence, or reason, is exactly what comprises a slavish obedience, which God does not desire. I believe God desires intelligent, willful obedience, based on an investigation of the evidence He has provided. We agree on the need for evidence. I say that the evidence of God's goodness and wisdom - His good character - is a big enough blanket to cover any questions and confusion I may have. But you say that is not enough. And that is a slap in God's face - to say that you know His character, then to say that He has to explain Himself to your satisfaction at every command before you will obey. God may have died, but He certainly didn't put any of us in charge.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: asygo]
#106514
12/25/08 05:17 AM
12/25/08 05:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Unfortunately, I was stating it about both of us. But if you don't think I have assessed your position properly, given that you have chosen to leave out certain pieces of info, then feel free to ignore it. But in any case, iron sharpens iron, and it's not always a picnic. Arnold, you wrote that you "used to" think highly of your ability to understand God's words and commands "also." "Used to" means you don't any more. "Also" means I still do. So I think highly of my own ability to understand God's words and commands, but you don't. The issue isn't whether you have assessed my position rightly or not, but that you would take it upon yourself to undertake this task. You say that your position shouldn't be taken as God removing every possible hook to hang doubts on. Yes, I keep repeating this, so the point will be clear. Enough evidence to make an well-reasoned, intelligent decision does not mean that any opportunity for doubt will be removed. God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith....Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth, will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith. (SC 105) But when I give a specific example, you use every conceivable hook, even hypothetical ones, to justify failure to obey.
Look at the excuses you gave. I presented the situation where God tells you to keep the seventh day. Then you come up with some hooks:
1) maybe it wasn't really a command
2) maybe it was done away with, notwithstanding that God just told you to do it
3) maybe it was changed Arnold, I'm an SDA! I'm not using any hook at all as an excuse not to keep the Sabbath! I investigated the evidence, and became convinced that what SDA's taught regarding the Sabbath was truth. I don't understand on what other basis you would expect someone to keep the Sabbath. Would you reject out of hand the claims of millions of Christians that the Sabbath shouldn't be kept without investigation? On what basis would you do so? I really don't understand what you're arguing against here. T:This is really a question of God's character, not of me or my willingness to do something. I've made no statements regarding my willingness or unwillingness to obey.
A:But you have said that if someone doesn't see any good reason to obey God's commands, they should not obey. No I didn't. We agree on the need for evidence. I say that the evidence of God's goodness and wisdom - His good character - is a big enough blanket to cover any questions and confusion I may have. But you say that is not enough. And that is a slap in God's face - to say that you know His character, then to say that He has to explain Himself to your satisfaction at every command before you will obey. God may have died, but He certainly didn't put any of us in charge. I didn't say this either, Arnold. You keep asserting things I've not said. Especially flagrant is the part in italics. Please quit doing this. This is not fair. Please quote things I've actually written. You got upset when I simply asked clarifying questions about your position. How you would feel if I actually asserted that you said things you never said?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: teresaq]
#106595
12/27/08 04:37 PM
12/27/08 04:37 PM
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There was even a time when I thought I was over the hurt. But I was only hardening my heart making matters worse. Now I welcome the pain. aaaahhh, you think im hardening my heart. God forbid. I was talking about myself. I shared my personal testimony. I would never speak to you that way. i havent seen any evidence of that in my life, since i still reach out to those i see in pain, and with much more wisdom and reliance on the Lord for Him to minister through me, i believe, than i ever did in my "pain".
but i dont "fear" hurting from what they did. i gave up the anger and felt the pain. its not the same as losing a loved one. that pain never goes away. we may forget at times, but when thinking about it it still hurts. but that is a different kind of pain. right now im worried about whether they will accept salvation and change than "feeling my pain".
maybe that is why it doesnt hurt anymore. its just not that important compared to whether they will come to know the Lord or not.
that is the struggle, staying in Jesus and out of myself.
another issue you touched on was repentence for what i have done. i have also had that experience. it seems repentence can go deeper and deeper. Amen! Thank you for sharing.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: Tom]
#106596
12/27/08 04:46 PM
12/27/08 04:46 PM
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Tom, you are taking Jesus' words out of context and applying it to everything. Moments afterward Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." How do you reconcile what you believe with what Jesus said here? Jesus said the following: 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. This looks to me to be saying that the reason He called them not friends but servants was tied to the fact that He told them things He had heard from His Father. He said, "for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth". So what distinguishes the servant from the friend? Isn't it that the servant does not know that his lord doeth, but the friend does? And isn't the reason for this because the lord has communicated these things? So the difference between servant and the friend is understanding. This seems to me to be in harmony with EGW's statement that God does not desire a slavish obedience, but one based on intelligent appreciation. You didn't reconcile it. Are you now saying Jesus didn't tell them everything His Father told Him?
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106599
12/27/08 05:20 PM
12/27/08 05:20 PM
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I think it's a moot point to the discussion. The things Jesus had to tell them which they couldn't bear may not have not have been the "all things" the Father told Him. The following is the salient point to our discussion: Jesus said the following: 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. This looks to me to be saying that the reason He called them not friends but servants was tied to the fact that He told them things He had heard from His Father. He said, "for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth". So what distinguishes the servant from the friend? Isn't it that the servant does not know that his lord doeth, but the friend does? And isn't the reason for this because the lord has communicated these things? So the difference between servant and the friend is understanding. This seems to me to be in harmony with EGW's statement that God does not desire a slavish obedience, but one based on intelligent appreciation.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command?
[Re: Tom]
#106600
12/27/08 05:24 PM
12/27/08 05:24 PM
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M: You didn't answer my question. Here it is again: Do these verses require "slavish" obedience since they do not contain "better" reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day? NOTE: The passage in Genesis is the only thing people had for 2500 years.
T: No it's not. I don't know why you would think this. There was a vast oral tradition, a part of which was included in the books of Moses, which include Job, as well as the Pentateuch. The only thing they had before the Exodus was what Moses wrote about in Genesis. Job says nothing about the Sabbath. If you disagree, please post inspired passages that teach otherwise. Again, you didn't answer my question. Here it is again: Do these verses [Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:8-11] require "slavish" obedience since they do not contain "better" reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day? M: It could be argued that people also understood the commandment as it reads in Exodus 20:8-11. Did these people render slavish obedience?
T: Since they were slaves, and needed to be educated in the things of God, it is not surprising that they would render a slavish obedience. Indeed, this is what the Old Covenant is about, rendering slavish obedience. However God was always interested in writing the law in their heart, and in obedience motivated by an intelligent appreciation of His character. God's people were not slaves for 2500 years. The Jews were slaves for less than 200 years. My question pertains to everyone who lived and kept the Sabbath before the Exodus. Did they render slavish obedience since the only reason God gave for keeping the Sabbath was because He rested on that day? M: Now, as to your first question. Jesus said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." Obviously, the kind of friendship Jesus is referring to isn't an ordinary friendship. How can it be? Jesus is, after all, God, and we're only human, and sinful to boot. My earthly friendships are not predicated on doing whatever they command me to do.
Jesus also said, "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." This must be understood in a limited sense, because obviously Jesus didn't tell them everything His Father told Him.
For example, Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." He left it to the Holy Spirit to explain certain things to the disciples later on. But not even the Holy Spirit could tell them everything. Elsewhere we read, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"
"Henceforth I call you not servants." Even this statement must be understood in a limited sense. Jesus also said, "He that is greatest among you shall be your servant. If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Well done, thou good and faithful servant . . . enter thou into the joy of thy lord. The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."
There is also the fact the disciples and apostles referred to themselves as servants. For example, "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ. Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."
"For the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth." Again, this statement must be understood in a limited sense. Jesus also said, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." Obviously this servant was in the know. Nevertheless, he didn't obey his master. The end of such servants is less than desirable. "Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
So, what did Jesus mean when He said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Again, I believe it must be understood within the immediate context.
Here it is: [John 15:1-17 quoted] This is the context of the statement, "All things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Especially, Jesus made known to them the following:
"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
This is what it takes to be Jesus' friend. But being His friend does not mean we stop being His servant. He will always be our Lord and Master, and we will always be His servants and friends.
Again, this type of friendship is unique in that it doesn't resemble normal earthly friendships. Beings friends with the Lord and Master of the Universe is not the same thing as being friends with angels or humans or any other FMA. For one thing, we are not His equal.
Consider also the fact Jesus called Judas "friend" the night he betrayed Jesus into the hands of sinners. "Friend, wherefore art thou come?" A similar thing exists in the following passages where Jesus is portrayed as calling people "friend" when they are in fact not His friends. "Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?" "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" I don't understand how your points about friends has to do with Jesus' point, that He was calling His disciples not servants, but friends, because a servant does not know what his lord is doing, but Jesus told them all things He had heard from His Father. This seems to me like the same idea EGW communicated in saying that God does not desire a slavish obedience, but one based on an intelligent appreciation of God's character. Tom, please address each point I made. It took me quite awhile to write them out. I would like to discuss them. T: The Old Covenant consists of a slavish obedience to laws written on stone, which is why it "gendereth to bondage." In the New Covenant the law is written in the heart, and one is constrained to obey by the agape of God, revealed in the cross of Calvary (which agrees with the 5T 269.2 quote you pointed out).
M: I, too, agree with the points you raised here, except I do not agree that obeying God for less than optimum reasons constitutes slavish obedience.
T: This is a bit vague. That is "less than optimum reason" is vague, but, depending upon how this is interpreted, I think this is exactly what constitutes slavish obedience. "Because I said so" is an example of a "less than optimum reason" for obeying God. Obeying God because He said so, if it is the fruit of faith that works by love, is righteousness and true holiness. As such there is nothing slavish about it. The concept of "slavish obedience" must necessarily apply to something else. M: I do not agree with you that obeying God based on reasons no better than, Because I said so, is slavish obedience.
T: Ok, we disagree on this point then. I don't see how this idea harmonizes with what Jesus said in John 15:15.
M: All true obedience springs forth from a heart wherein the Holy Spirit dwells triumphantly even when such obedience has a foundation no better than, Because I said so.
T: How would this be different than an automaton? "The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given." (SC 43)
How does, "Because I said so" appeal to the intellect? How does this involve reasoning together? Obedience that flows from a heart where the Holy Spirit resides is true obedience. There is nothing robotic or slavish about it. You seem to think true obedience is impossible if it is rendered in response to, Obey me because I said so. If what you say is right, how do you explain all the places in the Bible where God commanded people to do things without explaining why? On one occasion a guy didn't obey and he ended up in the belly of a whale.
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