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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Mountain Man] #106020
12/13/08 08:06 PM
12/13/08 08:06 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Jesus' whole purpose, as EGW put it, was "the revelation of God." Christ's taking our sin is a part of that revelation. God was actually was close to Christ than at any other time as He was on the cross:

Quote:
In that thick darkness God's presence was hidden. He makes darkness His pavilion, and conceals His glory from human eyes. God and His holy angels were beside the cross. The Father was with His Son. Yet His presence was not revealed. Had His glory flashed forth from the cloud, every human beholder would have been destroyed. And in that dreadful hour Christ was not to be comforted with the Father's presence. He trod the wine press alone, and of the people there was none with Him. (DA 753)


So we can conclude that the Father did not withdraw His presence, since He did the opposite, but He did not reveal that presence, nor was Christ comforted by it.

Quote:
Why did He have to treat Jesus as though He committed the sins of the world?


I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Quote:
If the only purpose is what I stated above, it seems like cruel overkill for the Father to also unleash His undiluted wrath upon Jesus.


This is a misleading way of putting this, especially the word "unleash," but the reason was that this was necessary in order to reveal truth.

Quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)


This couldn't have been seen apart from Christ's death. This is just one thing. The chapter "It Is Finished" brings out a number of other things, as does Scripture.

The wrath of God, as I pointed out in my post, is God's "giving up" the victim of His wrath. In the case of Christ, this was necessary to reveal truth.

Quote:
Seems to me it would be more in keeping with this purpose to simply have Jesus lay down on an altar and let the Father slay Him like in the story of Abraham and Isaac.


The purpose was to demonstrate the opposite of this, as DA 764 points out (it being sin that kills, not God), so this would hardly be helpful.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Tom] #106056
12/14/08 05:05 PM
12/14/08 05:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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How did Jesus' agonizing death on the cross reveal the love of God? How did God hiding His face reveal His love? It seems pointless, if not cruel and unusual, to submit to torture and death for no other reason than to demonstrate the love of God. Voluntarily permitting sinners to torture and kill you, when escape was within reason, seems melodramatic at best if no other purpose is served. It's a complete waste of life. Jesus sufficiently demonstrated the love of God before He willingly submitted to torture and death.

Unless, of course, His torture and death were needed to also demonstrate the inevitable results of sinning from which Jesus seeks to save us. But, according to your view of justice and judgment, what Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning. So, I am still puzzled by your ideas as to why Jesus had to suffer and die as a sinner.

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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Mountain Man] #106064
12/14/08 05:42 PM
12/14/08 05:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
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Quote:
How did Jesus' agonizing death on the cross reveal the love of God?


Hopefully this is a rhetorical question, but here's one way:

Quote:
33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (Luke 23)


Quote:
How did God hiding His face reveal His love? It seems pointless, if not cruel and unusual, to submit to torture and death for no other reason than to demonstrate the love of God.


This wasn't the only reason. If you read "It Is Finished," EGW speaks for 7 pages on what Christ's death accomplished. God's love is revealed in that He was willing to "deliver up" His Son for our salvation.

Quote:
Voluntarily permitting sinners to torture and kill you, when escape was within reason, seems melodramatic at best if no other purpose is served. It's a complete waste of life. Jesus sufficiently demonstrated the love of God before He willingly submitted to torture and death.


His death accomplished other things as well. Again, consider the above mentioned chapter.

Quote:
Unless, of course, His torture and death were needed to also demonstrate the inevitable results of sinning from which Jesus seeks to save us.


Yes, this is one of the other things.

Quote:
But, according to your view of justice and judgment, what Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning. So, I am still puzzled by your ideas as to why Jesus had to suffer and die as a sinner.


I'm sort of puzzled by your conclusion here. I've quoted the following many times:

Quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)


This is in the "It Is Finished" chapter, which speaks of the things which Christ's death accomplished. What Christ experienced has to be the inevitable result of sin in order for what she wrote here to make sense, right? It certainly seems clear to me that this is the case.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Tom] #106147
12/16/08 01:51 AM
12/16/08 01:51 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, you seemed to have missed the point. The point is Jesus sufficiently demonstrated the love of God before He willingly submitted to torture and death. Therefore, enduring the hiding of His Father's face while paying our sin debt of death also satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice, namely, death must happen in consequence of man's sin.

Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Unless, of course, His torture and death were needed to also demonstrate the inevitable results of sinning from which Jesus seeks to save us. But, according to your view of justice and judgment, what Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning. So, I am still puzzled by your ideas as to why Jesus had to suffer and die as a sinner.

T: I'm sort of puzzled by your conclusion here. I've quoted the following many times:

This quote addresses Satan - not Jesus. Besides that, your quote doesn't address my point. Here it is again: What Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning. So, His torture at the hands of sinners does not demonstrate the inevitable results of sinning. Which begs the question: What purpose did it serve? Why did He submit to it?

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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Mountain Man] #106150
12/16/08 03:04 AM
12/16/08 03:04 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, you seemed to have missed the point. The point is Jesus sufficiently demonstrated the love of God before He willingly submitted to torture and death.


Why do you assert this? Paul says:

Quote:
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph. 3:14-21)


Is there any doubt that it was the cross which inspired Paul to write this?

What in Christ's life reveals God's character so clearly as the latter scenes, up to and including His crucifixion? I can think of nothing which reveals God more clearly than this:

Quote:
33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (Luke 23)


This is breathtakingly beautiful!

Quote:
Therefore, enduring the hiding of His Father's face while paying our sin debt of death also satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice, namely, death must happen in consequence of man's sin.


The "therefore" doesn't follow. Even if your premise were true, it still wouldn't follow. All one could assert was there was some other reason for which Christ had to die, not that it was this one. Do you understand this point?

Quote:
This quote addresses Satan - not Jesus.


This was in a chapter discussing what Jesus' death accomplished! Everything in the chapter is addressing the death of Christ. The title of the chapter is "It Is Finished."

Quote:
Besides that, your quote doesn't address my point. Here it is again: What Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning. So, His torture at the hands of sinners does not demonstrate the inevitable results of sinning. Which begs the question: What purpose did it serve? Why did He submit to it?


Your premise is faulty, so your conclusion doesn't follow. Regarding the purpose it serves, read "It Is Finished"! There's seven pages of what purpose it served.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Tom] #106230
12/18/08 02:33 AM
12/18/08 02:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, do you agree that Jesus sufficiently demonstrated the love of God before He submitted to torture at the hands of sinners?

Do you agree that what Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning?

NOTE: Please understand that these questions do not imply Jesus did not demonstrate the love of God by submitting to torture at the hands of sinners.

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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Mountain Man] #106238
12/18/08 04:47 AM
12/18/08 04:47 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, do you agree that Jesus sufficiently demonstrated the love of God before He submitted to torture at the hands of sinners?


Before His death, not enough had been revealed to resolve the Great Controversy.

Quote:
Do you agree that what Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning?


No.

Quote:
NOTE: Please understand that these questions do not imply Jesus did not demonstrate the love of God by submitting to torture at the hands of sinners.


Ok.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Tom] #106273
12/19/08 05:05 PM
12/19/08 05:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Tom, do you agree that Jesus sufficiently demonstrated the love of God before He submitted to torture at the hands of sinners?

T: Before His death, not enough had been revealed to resolve the Great Controversy.

What did submitting to torture at the hands of sinners reveal and resolve about the GC that hadn't already been revealed and resolved?

Quote:
M: Do you agree that what Jesus suffered at the hands of sinners is not the inevitable results of sinning?

T: No.

What do you think is the inevitable results of sinning? Is suffering at the hands of sinners the inevitable results of sinning? Please support your answer with inspired passages. Monosyllabic answers are rarely sufficient. Thank you.

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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Mountain Man] #106329
12/20/08 08:54 AM
12/20/08 08:54 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
What did submitting to torture at the hands of sinners reveal and resolve about the GC that hadn't already been revealed and resolved?


The cross revealed the character of God, the character of Satan, the nature of sin, of death, and of our character (i.e., of unregenerate man).

Quote:
What do you think is the inevitable results of sinning?


As I've been discussing, death, the second death. That doesn't mean other things don't result from sin, but this has been the context of my discussion.

Quote:
Is suffering at the hands of sinners the inevitable results of sinning? Please support your answer with inspired passages. Monosyllabic answers are rarely sufficient. Thank you.


The cross demonstrates the sinful heart of man.

Quote:
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #11 - Benefits of Christ's Atoning SACRIFICE [Re: Tom] #106398
12/23/08 12:32 AM
12/23/08 12:32 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Quote:
What did submitting to torture at the hands of sinners reveal and resolve about the GC that hadn't already been revealed and resolved?

T: The cross revealed the character of God, the character of Satan, the nature of sin, of death, and of our character (i.e., of unregenerate man).

Are you saying none of these things were clearly revealed before Jesus was tortured at the hands of sinners?

Also, is torture received at the hands of sinners an aspect of the inevitable result of sin? I'm asking this question again because I didn't understand your answer.

PS - I'm trying to understand why you think it was necessary for Jesus to suffer torture at the hands of sinners in order to reveal and resolve the things you named above, namely, the character of God, the character of Satan, the nature of sin, of death, and the character of unregenerate man. It seems to me these things were clearly revealed before Jesus entered Gethsemane. Could it be there were other reasons why Jesus had to die the way He did (as opposed to laying down on an altar as in the case of Abraham and Isaac).

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