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Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #106081
12/14/08 05:45 PM
12/14/08 05:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, I suspect you misread what I wrote. I say this because I know you agree with it. Here's what I said: "Justice will not allow Him to freely forgive impenitent sinners." God cannot, even if He wanted to, forgive those who refuse to repent. Justice will not allow it. Why? Because God is a God of justice. Yes, He is also a God of mercy, but never at the expense of justice. Both are beautifully blended in God. Neither mercy nor justice will permit God to forgive the unforgivable. Why? Because mercy and justice are attributes of God's character.

Please address the rest of my post. Here it is: He earned the right on the cross to freely forgive penitent sinners. He thereby satisfied the demands of justice. He also demands love and compassion. Listen:

I am disappointed you ignored the quotes I posted. Justice, mercy, love, and compassion are all alike demanded of God and of us. Love and compassion are demanded for the same reasons justice and mercy are demanded. Not preferred or desired - but demanded and required. How do you explain this? Please include the quotes I posted in your answer. Thank you.

Here are the quotes:

Quote:
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

God will soon vindicate His justice before the universe. His justice requires that sin shall be punished; His mercy grants that sin shall be pardoned through repentance and confession. Pardon can come only through His only begotten Son; Christ alone can expiate sin--and then only when sin is repented of and forsaken. {UL 49.5}

It is not justice alone that is to be maintained; for this would eclipse the glory of the rainbow of promise above the throne; men could see only the penalty of the law. Were there no justice, no penalty, there would be no stability to the government of God. It is the mingling of judgment and mercy that makes salvation complete. {Mar 326.2}

The penalty of transgression is always death. Christ averted the immediate execution of the death sentence by giving His life for man. . . . Justice requires that men shall have light, and it also requires that he who refuses to walk in the Heaven-given light, the giving of which cost the death of the Son of God, must receive punishment. {HP 153.3}

The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender. Justice and mercy are blended. Christ and the law stand side by side. The law convicts the transgressor, and Christ pleads in the sinner's behalf. {TDG 246.1}

[God] demands of you to love as Christ has loved souls. He demands of you compassion for the suffering, the erring, those who are subject to Satan's temptations. He demands of you kindness, courtesy to even the unfortunate, a generous consideration of the feelings of others. {SD 271.3}

Good deeds are the fruit that Christ requires us to bear: kind words, deeds of benevolence, of tender regard for the poor, the needy, the afflicted. {2T 25.1}

Last edited by Mountain Man; 12/14/08 05:47 PM. Reason: Page break.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #106094
12/14/08 08:05 PM
12/14/08 08:05 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, I suspect you misread what I wrote. I say this because I know you agree with it. Here's what I said: "Justice will not allow Him to freely forgive impenitent sinners." God cannot, even if He wanted to, forgive those who refuse to repent. Justice will not allow it. Why? Because God is a God of justice.


There's no need to speak of "Justice" as if it were a sentient being. It's not. I've asked you to explain things in terms of God's character. Obviously the concept of "justice" has to do with the attribute of character "just." So, to answer my question, you could say, "God cannot freely forgive impenitent sinners because He is just," which is a statement I completely agree with.

Quote:
Please address the rest of my post. Here it is: He earned the right on the cross to freely forgive penitent sinners. He thereby satisfied the demands of justice.


This has more to do with my question, which has to do with repentant sinners. My question is, what is it about God's character that does not allow Him to freely forgive repentant sinners? So far you haven't addressed this. I can try to guess that, given what you've said, that what you mean, in terms of God's character, is the following: "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive repentant sinners." Is this correct?

Quote:
He also demands love and compassion. Listen:

I am disappointed you ignored the quotes I posted.


Well I'm disappointed to have to ask the question, "What is it about God's character which doesn't allow Him to freely forgive sinners" 6 or more times, so we both have something to be disappointed about! smile

Quote:
Justice, mercy, love, and compassion are all alike demanded of God and of us.


What do you mean by saying these things are "demanded."? Do you mean "necessary"? Who "demands" these things of God?

Quote:
Love and compassion are demanded for the same reasons justice and mercy are demanded. Not preferred or desired - but demanded and required. How do you explain this? Please include the quotes I posted in your answer. Thank you.


I don't see the need to include all the quotes in my answer. This would make the post very long, and be redundant. I'll include the post which includes the language your are citing:

Quote:
[God] demands of you to love as Christ has loved souls. He demands of you compassion for the suffering, the erring, those who are subject to Satan's temptations. He demands of you kindness, courtesy to even the unfortunate, a generous consideration of the feelings of others. {SD 271.3}


I understand this statement to be along the same lines of Christ's when He said that if we do not forgive others, neither will our heavenly father forgive us. In commenting upon this, the SOP points out that this statement of Christ's should not be understood as a condition, but it reveals the character of the one with the problem.

She explains:

Quote:
He who is unforgiving cuts off the very channel through which alone he can receive mercy from God.(MB 113)


She also states:

Quote:
The one thing essential for us in order that we may receive and impart the forgiving love of God is to know and believe the love that He has to us.(MB 115)


I think this is the crucial point. This one essential thing encapsulates the other things mentioned in the quote you cited as things which God "demands." It's not a demand in the sense of a work which must be performed to gain His favor, or to achieve some blessing, but it is something which must be in place, as a sign that the believing party has indeed been forgiven.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #106173
12/16/08 08:39 PM
12/16/08 08:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Tom, I suspect you misread what I wrote. I say this because I know you agree with it. Here's what I said: "Justice will not allow Him to freely forgive impenitent sinners." God cannot, even if He wanted to, forgive those who refuse to repent. Justice will not allow it. Why? Because God is a God of justice.

T: There's no need to speak of "Justice" as if it were a sentient being. It's not. I've asked you to explain things in terms of God's character. Obviously the concept of "justice" has to do with the attribute of character "just." So, to answer my question, you could say, "God cannot freely forgive impenitent sinners because He is just," which is a statement I completely agree with.

Tom, I am assuming you are familiar with the many passages in the Bible and the SOP where attributes of God's character are personified. Are you? If not, then I can post some for you. In fact, here are a few of them:

It is the Father's prerogative to forgive our transgressions and sins, [why], because Christ has taken upon Himself our guilt and reprieved us, imputing to us His own righteousness. His sacrifice satisfies fully the demands of justice. {FW 103.3} (bracketed word supplied for clarity)

If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. {AG 138.4}

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

NOTE: I'm just curious, if Ellen were alive and participating on this forum, would you counsel her to replace the words "law" and "justice" with words of your choosing? Would you explain to her that "law" and "justice" are not sentient beings?

Quote:
M: Please address the rest of my post. Here it is: He earned the right on the cross to freely forgive penitent sinners. He thereby satisfied the demands of justice.

T: This has more to do with my question, which has to do with repentant sinners. My question is, what is it about God's character that does not allow Him to freely forgive repentant sinners? So far you haven't addressed this. I can try to guess that, given what you've said, that what you mean, in terms of God's character, is the following: "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive repentant sinners." Is this correct?

God can and does freely forgive penitent sinners. No doubt about it. Pardon is free. Sinners cannot buy it. Where you and I seem to differ is what God had to pay to freely forgive penitent sinners. I believe it cost God the life and death of His only begotten Son. Listen:

With His own blood He paid the penalty for all wrongdoers. Every sin acknowledged before God with a contrite heart, He will remove. {7BC 970.14} Considering at what an immense cost our salvation has been purchased, what will be the fate of those who neglect so great salvation? {2T 213.1}

Every print of the nails will tell the story of man's wonderful redemption, and the dear price that purchased it. {1SG 61.2} He has purchased you at an infinite cost to Himself. His you are by creation and by redemption. {TSB 48.2} Stand before the cross of Calvary, and learn from it the cost of redemption. {UL 223.4}

We can see in the cross of Calvary what it has cost the Son of God to bring salvation to a fallen race. {FE 135.2} In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

Quote:
M: Justice, mercy, love, and compassion are all alike demanded of God and of us.

T: What do you mean by saying these things are "demanded."? Do you mean "necessary"? Who "demands" these things of God?

As you know, I am merely quoting what Ellen wrote about it (as your following response attests).

Quote:
M: Love and compassion are demanded for the same reasons justice and mercy are demanded. Not preferred or desired - but demanded and required. How do you explain this? Please include the quotes I posted in your answer. Thank you.

T: I don't see the need to include all the quotes in my answer. This would make the post very long, and be redundant. I'll include the post which includes the language your are citing: "[God] demands of you to love as Christ has loved souls. He demands of you compassion for the suffering, the erring, those who are subject to Satan's temptations. He demands of you kindness, courtesy to even the unfortunate, a generous consideration of the feelings of others. {SD 271.3}

I understand this statement to be along the same lines of Christ's when He said that if we do not forgive others, neither will our heavenly father forgive us. In commenting upon this, the SOP points out that this statement of Christ's should not be understood as a condition, but it reveals the character of the one with the problem. She explains: He who is unforgiving cuts off the very channel through which alone he can receive mercy from God.(MB 113)

She also states: The one thing essential for us in order that we may receive and impart the forgiving love of God is to know and believe the love that He has to us.(MB 115) I think this is the crucial point. This one essential thing encapsulates the other things mentioned in the quote you cited as things which God "demands." It's not a demand in the sense of a work which must be performed to gain His favor, or to achieve some blessing, but it is something which must be in place, as a sign that the believing party has indeed been forgiven.

I find it amusing that you were unwilling to include the quotes I was specifically asking about on the pretense it would make your response too long. But then you turn around and post a long response anyhow full of quotes of your own choosing.

At any rate, you wrote, "It's not a demand in the sense of a work which must be performed to gain His favor, or to achieve some blessing, but it is something which must be in place, as a sign that the believing party has indeed been forgiven." Are you saying complying with the demands of God "must be in place" in order to prove pardon is a reality?

Why wouldn't it simply flow forth naturally? And, if it does, why does God feel it is necessary to demand all the things Ellen named - justice, mercy, love, and compassion? Could it be that demanding them serves more things than the one reason you articulated? Otherwise, demanding something that happens naturally anyhow seems absurd.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #106248
12/18/08 02:52 PM
12/18/08 02:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Bump for Tom.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #106253
12/18/08 09:06 PM
12/18/08 09:06 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
NOTE: I'm just curious, if Ellen were alive and participating on this forum, would you counsel her to replace the words "law" and "justice" with words of your choosing? Would you explain to her that "law" and "justice" are not sentient beings?


I'd ask her how should would suggest getting people to accept her counsel regarding Jones and Waggoner.

Quote:
T: This has more to do with my question, which has to do with repentant sinners. My question is, what is it about God's character that does not allow Him to freely forgive repentant sinners? So far you haven't addressed this. I can try to guess that, given what you've said, that what you mean, in terms of God's character, is the following: "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive repentant sinners." Is this correct?

God can and does freely forgive penitent sinners. No doubt about it. Pardon is free. Sinners cannot buy it. Where you and I seem to differ is what God had to pay to freely forgive penitent sinners. I believe it cost God the life and death of His only begotten Son.


I don't differ on this point. I differ as to the reason why. As Fifield puts it:

Quote:
The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely.(God is Love)


Quote:
MM:I find it amusing that you were unwilling to include the quotes I was specifically asking about on the pretense it would make your response too long.


Here's what I wrote:

Quote:
T: I don't see the need to include all the quotes in my answer. This would make the post very long, and be redundant.


If the post was already long, responding to every quote would make it very, very long. I think calling this a "pretense" is uncharitable. It's not as if I didn't respond to the point you were making. I just didn't repeat myself 6 times.

Speaking of responding to points, I've been asking you for some time now, what about God's character makes Him unable to freely forgive. I still don't know your answer to this question.

Quote:
At any rate, you wrote, "It's not a demand in the sense of a work which must be performed to gain His favor, or to achieve some blessing, but it is something which must be in place, as a sign that the believing party has indeed been forgiven." Are you saying complying with the demands of God "must be in place" in order to prove pardon is a reality?


I was commenting on this:

Quote:
The one thing essential for us in order that we may receive and impart the forgiving love of God is to know and believe the love that He has to us.(MB 115)


She specifies what is necessary in order to receive and impart the forgiving love of God. I'm saying what she specifies here, which is to know and believe the love that God has to us, is what needs to be in place.

Quote:
Why wouldn't it simply flow forth naturally? And, if it does, why does God feel it is necessary to demand all the things Ellen named - justice, mercy, love, and compassion? Could it be that demanding them serves more things than the one reason you articulated? Otherwise, demanding something that happens naturally anyhow seems absurd.


It's just another way of communicating the same thought. People understand things differently, so God communicates the same principles in many different ways. For example, she says that love cannot be commanded, yet we see commands in Scripture, and "demands" which she articulates, which seem to contradict her point. But they don't. She is correct. Love cannot be commanded. So why does Scripture have God commanding love?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #106333
12/20/08 02:53 PM
12/20/08 02:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: NOTE: I'm just curious, if Ellen were alive and participating on this forum, would you counsel her to replace the words "law" and "justice" with words of your choosing? Would you explain to her that "law" and "justice" are not sentient beings?

T: I'd ask her how should would suggest getting people to accept her counsel regarding Jones and Waggoner.

I take it, then, you wouldn’t counsel her how to post or what to post. Nor does it sound like you would explain to her that “law” and “justice” are not sentient beings. Now, perhaps you can show me the same courtesy? Wouldn’t that be nice!

Quote:
T: This has more to do with my question, which has to do with repentant sinners. My question is, what is it about God's character that does not allow Him to freely forgive repentant sinners? So far you haven't addressed this. I can try to guess that, given what you've said, that what you mean, in terms of God's character, is the following: "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive repentant sinners." Is this correct?

M: God can and does freely forgive penitent sinners. No doubt about it. Pardon is free. Sinners cannot buy it. Where you and I seem to differ is what God had to pay to freely forgive penitent sinners. I believe it cost God the life and death of His only begotten Son.

T: I don't differ on this point. I differ as to the reason why. As Fifield puts it: The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (God is Love)

Fifield’s insight does not explain to whom or what God paid the price to be able to freely forgive penitent sinners. I believe He paid to Himself and the Universe in the name of law and justice. What do you believe?

Quote:
T: Speaking of responding to points, I've been asking you for some time now, what about God's character makes Him unable to freely forgive. I still don't know your answer to this question.

Here it is again: “God can and does freely forgive penitent sinners. No doubt about it. Pardon is free. Sinners cannot buy it.” God earned the right to pardon them on the cross. But His sense of justice will not let Him forgive impenitent sinners. Nothing is free. Everything cost something. It cost God Calvary to forgive sinners. He paid the price of redemption to Himself, to His sense of justice. Since justice belongs to everyone throughout the Universe, He also paid the price of redemption for everyone.

Quote:
M: At any rate, you wrote, "It's not a demand in the sense of a work which must be performed to gain His favor, or to achieve some blessing, but it is something which must be in place, as a sign that the believing party has indeed been forgiven." Are you saying complying with the demands of God "must be in place" in order to prove pardon is a reality?

T: I was commenting on this: “The one thing essential for us in order that we may receive and impart the forgiving love of God is to know and believe the love that He has to us. (MB 115) She specifies what is necessary in order to receive and impart the forgiving love of God. I'm saying what she specifies here, which is to know and believe the love that God has to us, is what needs to be in place.

Obviously, then, like faith and works, pardon and obedience go hand-in-hand. Separate yet conjoined.

Quote:
M: Why wouldn't it simply flow forth naturally? And, if it does, why does God feel it is necessary to demand all the things Ellen named - justice, mercy, love, and compassion? Could it be that demanding them serves more things than the one reason you articulated? Otherwise, demanding something that happens naturally anyhow seems absurd.

T: It's just another way of communicating the same thought. People understand things differently, so God communicates the same principles in many different ways. For example, she says that love cannot be commanded, yet we see commands in Scripture, and "demands" which she articulates, which seem to contradict her point. But they don't. She is correct. Love cannot be commanded. So why does Scripture have God commanding love?

I’m glad you acknowledge tension exists, rather than insisting she intended for us to interpret her seeming contradictions in light of your favorite view. In the cases mentioned above, both sides of the same coin are true. No contradictions exist. There is harmony through and through. God commands what He demands because there can be no uncertainty in the minds of fallen FMAs what is required of them, which is what is best for them. Self-justifying sinners look for loopholes when condemnation seems certain. The way God does things they won’t find any. If love and obedience were not required, if God did not command and demand such things, if He merely left it up to sinners to decide, they would, during judgment, argue it wasn’t clear what was forbidden and what was required. God could not refute their arguments.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #106334
12/20/08 04:47 PM
12/20/08 04:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I take it, then, you wouldn’t counsel her how to post or what to post. Nor does it sound like you would explain to her that “law” and “justice” are not sentient beings. Now, perhaps you can show me the same courtesy? Wouldn’t that be nice!


I think she understood these expressions were metaphors. I don't think you do.

Quote:
Fifield’s insight does not explain to whom or what God paid the price to be able to freely forgive penitent sinners. I believe He paid to Himself and the Universe in the name of law and justice. What do you believe?


Paid to Himself? No, I don't think that's a Scriptural idea. He gave Himself. That's Scriptural. For us and to us. There are many Scriptural passages which speak in these terms. There are not Scriptural passages which say that God gave Himself to Himself or for Himself.

Quote:
T: Speaking of responding to points, I've been asking you for some time now, what about God's character makes Him unable to freely forgive. I still don't know your answer to this question.

M:Here it is again: “God can and does freely forgive penitent sinners. No doubt about it. Pardon is free. Sinners cannot buy it.” God earned the right to pardon them on the cross. But His sense of justice will not let Him forgive impenitent sinners. Nothing is free. Everything cost something. It cost God Calvary to forgive sinners. He paid the price of redemption to Himself, to His sense of justice. Since justice belongs to everyone throughout the Universe, He also paid the price of redemption for everyone.


You say He paid the price of redemption to Himself. Why did He require payment for Himself?

The only attribute of God's character that you seem to bring up to answer my question is justice, so the answer to my question looks to be, "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive sinners. He must pay the price to Himself in order to be able to do so." Does this accurately represent what you're saying?

Quote:
T: It's just another way of communicating the same thought. People understand things differently, so God communicates the same principles in many different ways. For example, she says that love cannot be commanded, yet we see commands in Scripture, and "demands" which she articulates, which seem to contradict her point. But they don't. She is correct. Love cannot be commanded. So why does Scripture have God commanding love?

M:I’m glad you acknowledge tension exists, rather than insisting she intended for us to interpret her seeming contradictions in light of your favorite view.


This is an excellent FOTAP example. First of all, you say you're "glad" I "acknowledge" certain things, which has the implicit assumption that I am acknowledging certain things. Before being "glad" I "acknowledge" what you are asserting, it would be more prudent to establish that I actually acknowledge what you are suggesting.

Secondly you say "rather than insisting she intended for us to interpret her seeming contradictions according to her favorite view." This assumes:

1.I am, or was, "insisting" something.
2.I am "acknowledging" something rather than "insisting" on something else.
3.I am "insisting" she intended for us to interpret her seeming contradiction according to her favorite view.

I would challenge every one of these assumptions.

Regarding the rest of the paragraph, this seems to me to be a rather negative way of looking at things. You're presenting things as if God wanted to condemns sinners, and is making sure He can do so in an air-tight way. I think God wants to save sinners, and what He is doing is communicating the same truths in various ways, so He can reach every mind.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #106403
12/23/08 01:33 AM
12/23/08 01:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: I take it, then, you wouldn’t counsel her how to post or what to post. Nor does it sound like you would explain to her that “law” and “justice” are not sentient beings. Now, perhaps you can show me the same courtesy? Wouldn’t that be nice!

T: I think she understood these expressions were metaphors. I don't think you do.

The law is real, Tom, it is not a metaphor. And, justice is real. There is nothing metaphorical about law and justice. Both are realities. Both demand death for sin.

Quote:
M: Fifield’s insight does not explain to whom or what God paid the price to be able to freely forgive penitent sinners. I believe He paid to Himself and the Universe in the name of law and justice. What do you believe?

T: Paid to Himself? No, I don't think that's a Scriptural idea. He gave Himself. That's Scriptural. For us and to us. There are many Scriptural passages which speak in these terms. There are not Scriptural passages which say that God gave Himself to Himself or for Himself.

You still haven't explained to whom or what God paid the price to redeem us. From whom or what were we bought? While you are thinking of your answer, please consider the following insights:

Quote:
The penalty for breaking the law of God is proportionate to the price paid to redeem its transgressors. {FLB 354.5} Jesus paid an infinite price to redeem the world, and the race was given into His hands; they became His property. {3T 372.1} At infinite suffering, the sinless for the sinful, the price was paid that was to redeem the human family from the power of the destroyer and restore them again to the image of God. {9T 283.3}

"Ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:19, 20). What a price was paid to redeem the fallen race! {TDG 255.3} Every man and woman has had the ransom money paid by Jesus Christ. "Ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price"--even the precious blood of the Son of God. {OHC 42.2} Our ransom has been paid by our Saviour. No one need be enslaved by Satan. . . We have been bought with a price that it is impossible to compute. {6BC 1074.5}

The enemy is buying souls today very cheap. "Ye have sold yourselves for nought," is the language of Scripture. One is selling his soul for the world's applause, another for money; one to gratify base passions, another for worldly amusement. Such bargains are made daily. Satan is bidding for the purchase of Christ's blood and buying them cheap, notwithstanding the infinite price which has been paid to ransom them. {5T 133.4}

"Know ye not that . . . ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price." 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20. What a price has been paid for us! Behold the cross, and the Victim uplifted upon it. Look at those hands, pierced with the cruel nails. Look at His feet, fastened with spikes to the tree. Christ bore our sins in His own body. That suffering, that agony, is the price of your redemption. The word of command was given: "Deliver them from going down to perish eternally. I have found a ransom." {6T 479.2}

This parable [the pearl of great price] has a double significance, and applies not only to man seeking the kingdom of heaven, but to Christ seeking His lost inheritance. Through transgression man lost his holy innocence, and mortgaged himself to Satan. Christ, the only begotten Son of God, pledged Himself for the redemption of man, and paid the price of his ransom on the cross of Calvary. {TMK 84.3}

The Son of God passed through the portals of the tomb, that "through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Heb. 2:14. {GC 503.3} He died on the cross to destroy him who had the power of death and to take away the sin of every believing soul. {HP 33.5} The blood of the innocent had been shed for the guilty. By the life that He gave, man was ransomed from eternal death, and the doom of him who had the power of death was sealed. {RC 60.2}

Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave His life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute; He died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. {FLB 179.5}

When Satan was triumphing as the prince of the world, when he claimed the world as his kingdom, when we were all marred and corrupted with sin, God sent His messenger from heaven, even His only begotten Son, to proclaim to all the inhabitants of the world, "I have found a ransom. I have made a way of escape for all the perishing. I have your emancipation papers provided for you, sealed by the Lord of heaven and earth." {OHC 38.3}

When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon His Son, said to the sinner, "Live: I have found a ransom." {PP 154.1} Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, "I have found a ransom" (Letter 22, 1900). {6BC 1076.3}

God will soon vindicate His justice before the universe. His justice requires that sin shall be punished; His mercy grants that sin shall be pardoned through repentance and confession. Pardon can come only through His only begotten Son; Christ alone can expiate sin--and then only when sin is repented of and forsaken. Man has severed his connection with God, and his soul has become palsied and strengthless by the deadly poison of sin. But there was a time when the proclamation sounded through the heavenly courts, I have found a ransom! A divine life is given as man's ransom; One equal with the Father has become man's substitute. {UL 49.5}

According to the law Christ Himself gave, the forfeited inheritance was ransomed by the nearest of kin. Jesus Christ laid off His royal robe, His kingly crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, in order to become a substitute and surety for humanity, that dying in humanity He might by His death destroy him who had the power of death. He could not have done this as God, but by coming as man Christ could die. By death He overcame death. The death of Christ bore to the death him who had the power of death, and opened the gates of the tomb for all who receive Him as their personal Saviour. {7BC 925.6}

In the wilderness of temptation, in the Garden of Gethsemane, and on the cross, our Saviour measured weapons with the prince of darkness. His wounds became the trophies of His victory in behalf of the race. When Christ hung in agony upon the cross, while evil spirits rejoiced and evil men reviled, then indeed His heel was bruised by Satan. But that very act was crushing the serpent's head. Through death He destroyed "him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14. This act decided the destiny of the rebel chief, and made forever sure the plan of salvation. In death He gained the victory over its power; in rising again, He opened the gates of the grave to all His followers. In that last great contest we see fulfilled the prophecy, "It shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. {PK 701.3}

Satan did not then exult as he had done. He had hoped that he could break up the plan of salvation; but it was laid too deep. And now by Jesus' death, he knew that he must finally die, and his kingdom be taken away and given to Jesus. He held a council with his angels. He had prevailed nothing against the Son of God, and now they must increase their efforts, and with their cunning and power turn to Jesus' followers. They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins. {1SG 61.1}

Jesus changed the mother's grief to joy when He gave back her son; yet the youth was but called forth to this earthly life, to endure its sorrows, its toils, and its perils, and to pass again under the power of death. But Jesus comforts our sorrow for the dead with a message of infinite hope: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, . . . and have the keys of hell and of death." "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Rev. 1:18; Heb. 2:14, 15. {DA 320.1}

With a holy sadness Jesus comforted and cheered the angels and informed them that hereafter those whom He should redeem would be with Him, and that by His death He should ransom many and destroy him who had the power of death. And His Father would give Him the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, and He would possess it forever and ever. Satan and sinners would be destroyed, nevermore to disturb heaven or the purified new earth. Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted and rejoice that through His death fallen man could again be exalted to obtain favor with God and enjoy heaven. {EW 151.1}

These inspired passages make it clear that Jesus gave His life on the cross as the ransom price required to purchase the fallen race. The human race came under the dominion of sin and death when A&E sinned. At the time, the Devil possessed the power of death, therefore, as sinners, the fallen race became, by default, the subjects of Satan. But all that ended when Jesus became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. By laying down His life and taking it up Jesus wrested from the Devil the keys of hell and of death. The fallen race is now the purchased possession of Jesus.

To whom or what did Jesus pay in the currency of His blood the price to ransom and redeem the fallen race? The Devil? Of course not. We were never his to sell. Sinners are "under the law". Thus, it was to the law that Jesus paid the price to ransom and redeem us from the curse of the law. The law requires death for sin and Jesus paid our sin debt of death to the law, and by so doing we became His lawful property. Death was the price Jesus paid to the law to redeem us from the curse of the law.

Quote:
T: Speaking of responding to points, I've been asking you for some time now, what about God's character makes Him unable to freely forgive. I still don't know your answer to this question.

M:Here it is again: “God can and does freely forgive penitent sinners. No doubt about it. Pardon is free. Sinners cannot buy it.” God earned the right to pardon them on the cross. But His sense of justice will not let Him forgive impenitent sinners. Nothing is free. Everything cost something. It cost God Calvary to forgive sinners. He paid the price of redemption to Himself, to His sense of justice. Since justice belongs to everyone throughout the Universe, He also paid the price of redemption for everyone.

T: You say He paid the price of redemption to Himself. Why did He require payment for Himself?

The only attribute of God's character that you seem to bring up to answer my question is justice, so the answer to my question looks to be, "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive sinners. He must pay the price to Himself in order to be able to do so." Does this accurately represent what you're saying?

I addressed this in the comments above. The law is a transcript of God's character. The price Jesus paid to the law to redeem us is the price He paid to the Godhead in the name of law and justice.

Quote:
T: It's just another way of communicating the same thought. People understand things differently, so God communicates the same principles in many different ways. For example, she says that love cannot be commanded, yet we see commands in Scripture, and "demands" which she articulates, which seem to contradict her point. But they don't. She is correct. Love cannot be commanded. So why does Scripture have God commanding love?

M:I’m glad you acknowledge tension exists, rather than insisting she intended for us to interpret her seeming contradictions in light of your favorite view.

T: This is an excellent FOTAP example. First of all, you say you're "glad" I "acknowledge" certain things, which has the implicit assumption that I am acknowledging certain things. Before being "glad" I "acknowledge" what you are asserting, it would be more prudent to establish that I actually acknowledge what you are suggesting.

Secondly you say "rather than insisting she intended for us to interpret her seeming contradictions according to her favorite view." This assumes:

1.I am, or was, "insisting" something.
2.I am "acknowledging" something rather than "insisting" on something else.
3.I am "insisting" she intended for us to interpret her seeming contradiction according to her favorite view.

I would challenge every one of these assumptions.

I said, "In light of your favorite view" not what you just wrote - "her favorite view".

Quote:
T: Regarding the rest of the paragraph, this seems to me to be a rather negative way of looking at things. You're presenting things as if God wanted to condemns sinners, and is making sure He can do so in an air-tight way. I think God wants to save sinners, and what He is doing is communicating the same truths in various ways, so He can reach every mind.

I agree God is doing everything He can to motivate sinners to repent and be saved; however, I also believe He is covering all the bases to prevent sinners from having excuses in judgment. It makes perfect sense in light of all the quotes I posted.

Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Mountain Man] #106408
12/23/08 02:12 AM
12/23/08 02:12 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T: I think she understood these expressions were metaphors. I don't think you do.

M:The law is real, Tom, it is not a metaphor. And, justice is real. There is nothing metaphorical about law and justice. Both are realities. Both demand death for sin.


This is substantiating my point.

Quote:
T: Paid to Himself? No, I don't think that's a Scriptural idea. He gave Himself. That's Scriptural. For us and to us. There are many Scriptural passages which speak in these terms. There are not Scriptural passages which say that God gave Himself to Himself or for Himself.

M:You still haven't explained to whom or what God paid the price to redeem us. From whom or what were we bought? While you are thinking of your answer, please consider the following insights:


Not true! You've asked this many times, and I've responded many times.

Looking over the EGW references you provided, it looks to me they are saying the same thing the Scripture teaches, that God gave Himself for us in Christ. I don't see anywhere where she says that God paid a price to Himself. The Scriptures says that Christ "gave Himself for us," but not that He, or God, paid a price to Himself.

Quote:
To whom or what did Jesus pay in the currency of His blood the price to ransom and redeem the fallen race? The Devil? Of course not. We were never his to sell. Sinners are "under the law". Thus, it was to the law that Jesus paid the price to ransom and redeem us from the curse of the law. The law requires death for sin and Jesus paid our sin debt of death to the law, and by so doing we became His lawful property. Death was the price Jesus paid to the law to redeem us from the curse of the law.


To the law? You can't pay a price "to the law." The law is not a sentient being. You can pay a price to someone, not to a thing. I doubt we're going to get anywhere with this, though, as we've been over this.

Quote:
T: You say He paid the price of redemption to Himself. Why did He require payment for Himself?

The only attribute of God's character that you seem to bring up to answer my question is justice, so the answer to my question looks to be, "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive sinners. He must pay the price to Himself in order to be able to do so." Does this accurately represent what you're saying?

M:I addressed this in the comments above. The law is a transcript of God's character. The price Jesus paid to the law to redeem us is the price He paid to the Godhead in the name of law and justice.


You can answer my question yes or no. Either it accurately reflects your thought, or it doesn't.

Regarding what you're saying here, again, Christ could not pay a price "to the law" because the law is not a sentient being. He could pay a price to God, if that's your idea.

Quote:
I agree God is doing everything He can to motivate sinners to repent and be saved; however, I also believe He is covering all the bases to prevent sinners from having excuses in judgment. It makes perfect sense in light of all the quotes I posted.


IMO the idea that God is "covering all the bases to prevent sinners from having an excuse in judgment" is a self-centered way of looking at things.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does God Punish Suicide? [Re: Tom] #106481
12/24/08 07:21 PM
12/24/08 07:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
T: I think she understood these expressions were metaphors. I don't think you do.

M:The law is real, Tom, it is not a metaphor. And, justice is real. There is nothing metaphorical about law and justice. Both are realities. Both demand death for sin.

T: This is substantiating my point.

Are you implying law and justice are not realities, that they’re merely metaphors, that they do not demand death for sin?

Quote:
T: Paid to Himself? No, I don't think that's a Scriptural idea. He gave Himself. That's Scriptural. For us and to us. There are many Scriptural passages which speak in these terms. There are not Scriptural passages which say that God gave Himself to Himself or for Himself.

M:You still haven't explained to whom or what God paid the price to redeem us. From whom or what were we bought? While you are thinking of your answer, please consider the following insights:

Quote:
The penalty for breaking the law of God is proportionate to the price paid to redeem its transgressors. {FLB 354.5} Jesus paid an infinite price to redeem the world, and the race was given into His hands; they became His property. {3T 372.1} At infinite suffering, the sinless for the sinful, the price was paid that was to redeem the human family from the power of the destroyer and restore them again to the image of God. {9T 283.3}

"Ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:19, 20). What a price was paid to redeem the fallen race! {TDG 255.3} Every man and woman has had the ransom money paid by Jesus Christ. "Ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price"--even the precious blood of the Son of God. {OHC 42.2} Our ransom has been paid by our Saviour. No one need be enslaved by Satan. . . We have been bought with a price that it is impossible to compute. {6BC 1074.5}

The enemy is buying souls today very cheap. "Ye have sold yourselves for nought," is the language of Scripture. One is selling his soul for the world's applause, another for money; one to gratify base passions, another for worldly amusement. Such bargains are made daily. Satan is bidding for the purchase of Christ's blood and buying them cheap, notwithstanding the infinite price which has been paid to ransom them. {5T 133.4}

"Know ye not that . . . ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price." 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20. What a price has been paid for us! Behold the cross, and the Victim uplifted upon it. Look at those hands, pierced with the cruel nails. Look at His feet, fastened with spikes to the tree. Christ bore our sins in His own body. That suffering, that agony, is the price of your redemption. The word of command was given: "Deliver them from going down to perish eternally. I have found a ransom." {6T 479.2}

This parable [the pearl of great price] has a double significance, and applies not only to man seeking the kingdom of heaven, but to Christ seeking His lost inheritance. Through transgression man lost his holy innocence, and mortgaged himself to Satan. Christ, the only begotten Son of God, pledged Himself for the redemption of man, and paid the price of his ransom on the cross of Calvary. {TMK 84.3}

The Son of God passed through the portals of the tomb, that "through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Heb. 2:14. {GC 503.3} He died on the cross to destroy him who had the power of death and to take away the sin of every believing soul. {HP 33.5} The blood of the innocent had been shed for the guilty. By the life that He gave, man was ransomed from eternal death, and the doom of him who had the power of death was sealed. {RC 60.2}

Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave His life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute; He died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. {FLB 179.5}

When Satan was triumphing as the prince of the world, when he claimed the world as his kingdom, when we were all marred and corrupted with sin, God sent His messenger from heaven, even His only begotten Son, to proclaim to all the inhabitants of the world, "I have found a ransom. I have made a way of escape for all the perishing. I have your emancipation papers provided for you, sealed by the Lord of heaven and earth." {OHC 38.3}

When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon His Son, said to the sinner, "Live: I have found a ransom." {PP 154.1} Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, "I have found a ransom" (Letter 22, 1900). {6BC 1076.3}

God will soon vindicate His justice before the universe. His justice requires that sin shall be punished; His mercy grants that sin shall be pardoned through repentance and confession. Pardon can come only through His only begotten Son; Christ alone can expiate sin--and then only when sin is repented of and forsaken. Man has severed his connection with God, and his soul has become palsied and strengthless by the deadly poison of sin. But there was a time when the proclamation sounded through the heavenly courts, I have found a ransom! A divine life is given as man's ransom; One equal with the Father has become man's substitute. {UL 49.5}

According to the law Christ Himself gave, the forfeited inheritance was ransomed by the nearest of kin. Jesus Christ laid off His royal robe, His kingly crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, in order to become a substitute and surety for humanity, that dying in humanity He might by His death destroy him who had the power of death. He could not have done this as God, but by coming as man Christ could die. By death He overcame death. The death of Christ bore to the death him who had the power of death, and opened the gates of the tomb for all who receive Him as their personal Saviour. {7BC 925.6}

In the wilderness of temptation, in the Garden of Gethsemane, and on the cross, our Saviour measured weapons with the prince of darkness. His wounds became the trophies of His victory in behalf of the race. When Christ hung in agony upon the cross, while evil spirits rejoiced and evil men reviled, then indeed His heel was bruised by Satan. But that very act was crushing the serpent's head. Through death He destroyed "him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14. This act decided the destiny of the rebel chief, and made forever sure the plan of salvation. In death He gained the victory over its power; in rising again, He opened the gates of the grave to all His followers. In that last great contest we see fulfilled the prophecy, "It shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. {PK 701.3}

Satan did not then exult as he had done. He had hoped that he could break up the plan of salvation; but it was laid too deep. And now by Jesus' death, he knew that he must finally die, and his kingdom be taken away and given to Jesus. He held a council with his angels. He had prevailed nothing against the Son of God, and now they must increase their efforts, and with their cunning and power turn to Jesus' followers. They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins. {1SG 61.1}

Jesus changed the mother's grief to joy when He gave back her son; yet the youth was but called forth to this earthly life, to endure its sorrows, its toils, and its perils, and to pass again under the power of death. But Jesus comforts our sorrow for the dead with a message of infinite hope: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, . . . and have the keys of hell and of death." "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Rev. 1:18; Heb. 2:14, 15. {DA 320.1}

With a holy sadness Jesus comforted and cheered the angels and informed them that hereafter those whom He should redeem would be with Him, and that by His death He should ransom many and destroy him who had the power of death. And His Father would give Him the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, and He would possess it forever and ever. Satan and sinners would be destroyed, nevermore to disturb heaven or the purified new earth. Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted and rejoice that through His death fallen man could again be exalted to obtain favor with God and enjoy heaven. {EW 151.1}

These inspired passages make it clear that Jesus gave His life on the cross as the ransom price required to purchase the fallen race. The human race came under the dominion of sin and death when A&E sinned. At the time, the Devil possessed the power of death, therefore, as sinners, the fallen race became, by default, the subjects of Satan. But all that ended when Jesus became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. By laying down His life and taking it up Jesus wrested from the Devil the keys of hell and of death. The fallen race is now the purchased possession of Jesus.

T: Not true! You've asked this many times, and I've responded many times.

Looking over the EGW references you provided, it looks to me they are saying the same thing the Scripture teaches, that God gave Himself for us in Christ. I don't see anywhere where she says that God paid a price to Himself. The Scriptures says that Christ "gave Himself for us," but not that He, or God, paid a price to Himself.

You still haven't explained to whom or what God paid the price to redeem us. From whom or what were we bought? You have only argued against the view that Jesus paid the ransom price of death to the Godhead and the Universe in the name of law and justice. The quotes I posted above make it clear that sinners were under the curse of the law, on death row, until Jesus paid in the currency of blood the ransom price required by law and justice to release sinners from having to pay the price with their own blood. The point is the price required to release sinners from the death penalty is blood – not repentance and obedience.

Quote:
M: To whom or what did Jesus pay in the currency of His blood the price to ransom and redeem the fallen race? The Devil? Of course not. We were never his to sell. Sinners are "under the law". Thus, it was to the law that Jesus paid the price to ransom and redeem us from the curse of the law. The law requires death for sin and Jesus paid our sin debt of death to the law, and by so doing we became His lawful property. Death was the price Jesus paid to the law to redeem us from the curse of the law.

T: To the law? You can't pay a price "to the law." The law is not a sentient being. You can pay a price to someone, not to a thing. I doubt we're going to get anywhere with this, though, as we've been over this.

Of course Jesus paid the price to law and justice. And, no, they are not sentient beings. We’ve gone over this already. The price was paid in full in blood. Such a payment is not deposited in a bank. Money doesn’t change hands. The same thing applies to the death penalty when death row criminals are executed. We often say, “They paid their debt to society.” But no money changes hands. They paid their debt with their life.

Quote:
T: You say He paid the price of redemption to Himself. Why did He require payment for Himself? The only attribute of God's character that you seem to bring up to answer my question is justice, so the answer to my question looks to be, "Because God is just, He cannot freely forgive sinners. He must pay the price to Himself in order to be able to do so." Does this accurately represent what you're saying?

M:I addressed this in the comments above. The law is a transcript of God's character. The price Jesus paid to the law to redeem us is the price He paid to the Godhead in the name of law and justice.

T: You can answer my question yes or no. Either it accurately reflects your thought, or it doesn't. Regarding what you're saying here, again, Christ could not pay a price "to the law" because the law is not a sentient being. He could pay a price to God, if that's your idea.

Here’s my answer again: God can and does freely forgive penitent sinners. No doubt about it. Pardon is free. Sinners cannot buy it. God earned the right to pardon them on the cross. But His sense of justice will not let Him forgive impenitent sinners. Nothing is free. Everything cost something. It cost God the death of His only begotten Son. It costs us the crucifixion of self. We must crucify our old man habits first and then God can freely forgive us. It never happens the other way around.

Quote:
M: I agree God is doing everything He can to motivate sinners to repent and be saved; however, I also believe He is covering all the bases to prevent sinners from having excuses in judgment. It makes perfect sense in light of all the quotes I posted.

T: IMO the idea that God is "covering all the bases to prevent sinners from having an excuse in judgment" is a self-centered way of looking at things.

Here’s how Ellen describes it:

Quote:
Of the Amorites the Lord said: "In the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full." Although this nation was conspicuous because of its idolatry and corruption, it had not yet filled up the cup of its iniquity, and God would not give command for its utter destruction. The people were to see the divine power manifested in a marked manner, that they might be left without excuse. The compassionate Creator was willing to bear with their iniquity until the fourth generation. Then, if no change was seen for the better, His judgments were to fall upon them. {5T 208.1}

More than one hundred years before the Flood the Lord sent an angel to faithful Noah to make known to him that He would no longer have mercy upon the corrupt race. But He would not have them ignorant of His design. He would instruct Noah and make him a faithful preacher to warn the world of its coming destruction, that the inhabitants of the earth might be left without excuse. Noah was to preach to the people, and also to prepare an ark as God should direct him for the saving of himself and family. He was not only to preach, but his example in building the ark was to convince all that he believed what he preached. {SR 62.3}

"Art Thou the Christ?" they said, "tell us." But Christ remained silent. They continued to ply Him with questions. At last in tones of mournful pathos He answered, "If I tell you, ye will not believe; and if I also ask you, ye will not answer Me, nor let Me go." But that they might be left without excuse He added the solemn warning, "Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God." {DA 714.2}

How do you interpret the concept expressed in the phrase – “that they might be left without excuse”?

BTW, the reason we are discussing this concept is because I said God offered to pardon Lucifer, even though God knew he would reject it and go on and rebel, is so that he might be left without excuse in judgment. That is, he will not be able to find a loophole and argue his way out of hell. After God does everything He can to give people reasons to love and obey Him, if they reject Him, He then does everything He can make sure they have no excuses in judgment to stay out of the lake of fire. He does things for two different reasons. One is so that they have reasons to love Him, and the other is so that they have no excuses to stay of out of the lake of fire.

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