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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10641
08/13/04 10:50 PM
08/13/04 10:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote: Originally posted by danielw: Is there any inspired writing that supports this statement? quote: God's love towards the sinner is unconditional.
E. G. White uses the phrase "unmerited love", which is synonymous to "unconditional love".
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10642
08/15/04 01:20 AM
08/15/04 01:20 AM
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OP
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Japan
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Thank you Tom-san for attempting to answer my question.
No one has yet shown where unconditional love is taught in inspired writings. Does the phrase "unmerited love" mean "unconditional love"? A check on Roget's Thesaurus gives 3 entries for "unmerited". 1. gratuitous: not necessary 2. unjust: not fair 3. unworthy: not of value, undeserving Only undeserving fits this instance of its use, and it is plain to all that "undeserving" is not close to "unconditional".
What is the antonym of "love"? (antonym = a word having a meaning opposite to that of another word)
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10643
08/15/04 02:40 AM
08/15/04 02:40 AM
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Most often people seem to think that "hate" is the opposite of "love". But I've heard it said that this can't be true, that "apathy" is the opposite of love, since apathy means you just don't care one way or the other. When you hate someone or something you still care about them, albeit in a negative way.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10644
08/15/04 04:41 AM
08/15/04 04:41 AM
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Active Member 2012
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To merit something is to deserve it. Unmerited love means the love is not deserved. Assuming for the moment that God's love is conditional, what would the condition be? How would such a condition not be meriting God's love?
I'm failing to see a distinction between "unmerited" and "unconditional".
I think God's action towards Adam and Eve after their fall illustrate the principle of unconditional love. God loved them and unilaterally took action to save them. They had fulfilled no conditions which would have led God to sacrifice His Son on their behalf.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10645
08/15/04 05:01 AM
08/15/04 05:01 AM
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I don't know if this will be helpful, but the following statement came to mind:
I ask, How can I present this matter as it is? The Lord Jesus imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins, in presenting His righteousness for man to grasp by living faith--which is also the gift of God. If you would gather together everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the human soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason. Standing in the presence of their Creator and looking upon the unsurpassed glory which enshrouds His person, they are looking upon the Lamb of God given from the foundation of the world to a life of humiliation, to be rejected of sinful men, to be despised, to be crucified. Who can measure the infinity of the sacrifice!
Christ for our sakes became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. And any works that man can render to God will be far less than nothingness. My requests are made acceptable only because they are laid upon Christ's righteousness. The idea of doing anything to merit the grace of pardon is fallacy from beginning to end. "Lord, in my hand no price I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling." FW 24
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10646
08/15/04 05:07 AM
08/15/04 05:07 AM
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Active Member 2012
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quote:
What is the antonym of "love"? (antonym = a word having a meaning opposite to that of another word) [/QB]
C. S. Lewis supposedly wrote, "The opposite of love is not hate, it is power." (I say "supposedly" because I just have the quote, not a reference).
Elie Wiesel wrote:
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10647
08/16/04 12:08 AM
08/16/04 12:08 AM
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Would Christ saying to love even our enemies in Matthew 5:43-45 (quoted below) testify to God's unconditional love? quote:
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10648
08/16/04 06:02 AM
08/16/04 06:02 AM
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OP
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Yes, the opposite of LOVE is HATE. And God does hate sometimes. quote: Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
This doctrine of "unconditional love" was not generally known when i was growing up in the 1960-70s. It is possible some "scholars" were already promoting it, but it was not generally known until the middle 1990s or so.
It seems to have come largely from the "peace, love, sex, drugs, rock n roll" movement of the 1960s.
What is the end result of "unconditional love"? It is of course Universalism. This is the natural result of such teaching.
Just try googleing "unconditional love". Other than the movie and song of that title, it mostly brings up pagan, yoga, and homosexual sites. Google "unconditional love" sda, and the first site that comes up is the SDA Gay and Lesbian site. They state there: "This list is dedicated to the proposition that God loves lesbian and gay people unconditionally in spite of many messages from representatives of the church that have presented a contrary view."
Universalism is one of the last big messages that false pastors will give to the churches. This is prophesied in the original 1858 Great Controversy, chapter 35: quote: The people turned upon the ministers with bitter hate, and reproached them, telling them, You have not warned us. You told us all the world was to be converted, and cried, Peace, peace, to quiet every fear that was aroused. You have not told us of this hour, and those who warned us of it you said were fanatics, and evil men, who would ruin us. But the ministers, I saw, did not escape the wrath of God. Their sufferings were ten-fold greater than their people's.
Looks like God is angry at those false shepherds.
If you wish to see a rebuttal to "Beyond Belief" where the author states: "This is the key issue here", look here.
I actually had this email exchange with someone. "If God's love is unconditional, then if Satan repented now, he would be accepted back into heaven." "Of course" was the reply. This is the end result of this thinking - God's love is unconditional. It is Universalism under a different name.
May we show love to God and our fellow man, in the truth of the Spirit.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10649
08/16/04 04:15 PM
08/16/04 04:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I would like to see a response to the post I wrote at 10:41 on 8/14. Thanks.
You appear to be arguing that God will love us if we are good, but will hate us if we are bad. Am I understanding you correctly?
The assertion that believing that God's love is unconditional will lead to Universalism is false. There are many who believe God's love is unconditional - God loves because God is love - but that not all will be saved.
The Spirit of Prophesy comments on this issue:
"God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
...
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." GC 541-3
God has created us with free will, and the possibility of rejecting Him. Because God loves us unconditionally does not mean we will be saved. His love respects our choice to spurn Him.
Regarding the question of love, it's enough to appeal to our own experience. If you have a spouse or child or parent who is lost at last, and you witness your loved ones existence mercifully ending in the lake of fire, are you going to hate them? To ask such a question is to answer it. Is God's heart less tender than ours?
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10650
08/16/04 06:05 PM
08/16/04 06:05 PM
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Good points Tom. I also wonder about the usage of the word "hate" in the Bible. Does it always means "hate" the way we think of it? Genesis 29:30,31 "And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, He opened her womb: but Rachel was barren." Here we have it said that Jacob loved Leah, but not as much as Rachel; then the very next verse says Leah was hated. Could "hate" sometimes mean "to love less"? Luke 14:26 "If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."
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