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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106294
12/19/08 08:05 PM
12/19/08 08:05 PM
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Yes, we are to be perfect. But our perfection is not acceptable as is; it must be covered by Christ's blood. This is the crux of the question, eh! I have yet to read in the Bible or the SOP where this view of experiential righteousness is supported. I have read where such righteousness is the result of Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. But I have not read where it is unacceptable to the Father. We'll get to the 1SM 344 below. But here's one you quoted earlier: Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2} Christ's character stands in place of your character. She didn't say, "your character is just like Christ's character." In fact, the DA quote says that it is possible for those who are abiding in Christ to have a faulty character. Jesus didn't have a faulty character. PS - Even the famous quote in 1SM 344 does not say the fruits of combining the human and divine natures yields righteousness which is unacceptable to God. Listen:
The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2} That quote is referring to "true believers" in Christ. We are agreed so far, I assume. And as true believers, they fulfill 1Jn 3:9 - they do not sin. Do we agree here? So what is the "corrupt channels of humanity" that true believers have, and the "taint of earthly corruption" that Jesus doesn't have?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106295
12/19/08 08:43 PM
12/19/08 08:43 PM
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It is the condition of sinlessness described in 1Jn 3:9. Those who are born of God do not and cannot sin. That applies to all who are born of God, whether a newbie or a veteran, a savage or a scholar. But it is a sinlessness that does not negate 1Jn 1:8, 10. Again, amen! However, I suspect you have a different interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 than I do. I suspect you, like others, take it to mean we can never be truly free from sin, that sin is so systemic that we will always, in one way or another, sin, and that this condition of sinfulness will continue to taint everything we do until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh with sinless flesh. Of course, this theory assumes sin is a state of doing as well as a state of being. Are my suspicions of your interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 right, partially right, or totally off base? They are at least partially right. Sin is a state of being as well as a state of doing. On top of that, it is also a state of thinking. I suspect that you define sin in a way that excludes a state of being. Every postlapsarian I know does. Am I right? If we take that definition, many verses fall into place. But then, Saul the Pharisee would also have been fine. Some people believe John implies in 1 John 1:6-10 that anyone who believes they have "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" (HP 146) is a liar and the truth is not in them. They assume John is saying nobody can be free from sin, this side of glory, since sin is also a state of being. Not necessarily. It depends on what you think that "condition of sinlessness" is. None of the prophets or apostles ever claimed to be sinless. Men who have lived the closest to God confessed the sin fulness of their natures.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106297
12/19/08 08:58 PM
12/19/08 08:58 PM
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In my previous post I quoted Ellen comparing the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of saints. Both are of the same origin. Both are the result of combining sinful human nature and sinless divine nature. But not combining the sinless divine nature with the sinful human corruption. Most people are unwilling to say Jesus' righteousness was unacceptable to the Father, therefore, and for the same reasons, they should be able to say the righteousness of saints is also acceptable to the Father. It is, if we agree that it is Christ's righteousness imputed, not imparted. Imparted righteousness has its place, but not here. Our title to heaven is 100% imputed righteousness. That's taught in 1SM 344.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: asygo]
#106380
12/22/08 08:49 PM
12/22/08 08:49 PM
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A: Yes, we are to be perfect. But our perfection is not acceptable as is; it must be covered by Christ's blood.
M: This is the crux of the question, eh! I have yet to read in the Bible or the SOP where this view of experiential righteousness is supported. I have read where such righteousness is the result of Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. But I have not read where it is unacceptable to the Father.
A: We'll get to the 1SM 344 below. But here's one you quoted earlier: "Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2} Christ's character stands in place of your character. She didn't say, "your character is just like Christ's character." In fact, the DA quote says that it is possible for those who are abiding in Christ to have a faulty character. Jesus didn't have a faulty character. Ellen is talking about Jesus covering our past sins with His blood and righteousness. Also, no one can stand before God justified while cultivating faulty traits of character. And, no, Jesus never cultivated faulty traits of character. He did, however, inherit sinful traits and tendencies. M: PS - Even the famous quote in 1SM 344 does not say the fruits of combining the human and divine natures yields righteousness which is unacceptable to God. Listen:
The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2} (emphasis by Arnold)
A: That quote is referring to "true believers" in Christ. We are agreed so far, I assume. And as true believers, they fulfill 1Jn 3:9 - they do not sin. Do we agree here? So what is the "corrupt channels of humanity" that true believers have, and the "taint of earthly corruption" that Jesus doesn't have? Yes, to the first two questions. The "corrupt channels of humanity" must necessarily refer to man as a whole. But as true believers abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature their prayers and praise bypass the corrupt channels of humanity and ascend to God through Jesus purified and perfumed by His blood and righteousness. Good and evil cannot flow forth simultaneously. Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. A congregation may be the poorest in the land. It may be without the attraction of any outward show; but if the members possess the principles of the character of Christ, they will have His joy in their souls. Angels will unite with them in their worship. The praise and thanksgiving from grateful hearts will ascend to God as a sweet oblation. {COL 298.3} Music should have beauty, pathos, and power. Let the voices be lifted in songs of praise and devotion. Call to your aid, if practicable, instrumental music, and let the glorious harmony ascend to God, an acceptable offering. {Ev 505.1} So the homes of Christians should be lights in the world. From them, morning and evening, prayer should ascend to God as sweet incense. And as the morning dew, His mercies and blessings will descend upon the suppliants. {7T 44.3} Such prayer from a sincere heart ascends as incense before the Lord; and offerings to His cause and gifts to the needy and suffering are a sacrifice well pleasing to Him. Thus the gifts of the Philippian brethren who ministered to the needs of the apostle Paul while a prisoner at Rome, are said to be "an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God." {6BC 1059.5}
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: asygo]
#106383
12/22/08 09:12 PM
12/22/08 09:12 PM
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A: It is the condition of sinlessness described in 1Jn 3:9. Those who are born of God do not and cannot sin. That applies to all who are born of God, whether a newbie or a veteran, a savage or a scholar. But it is a sinlessness that does not negate 1Jn 1:8, 10.
M: Again, amen! However, I suspect you have a different interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 than I do. I suspect you, like others, take it to mean we can never be truly free from sin, that sin is so systemic that we will always, in one way or another, sin, and that this condition of sinfulness will continue to taint everything we do until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh with sinless flesh. Of course, this theory assumes sin is a state of doing as well as a state of being. Are my suspicions of your interpretation of 1 John 1:6-10 right, partially right, or totally off base?
A: They are at least partially right. Sin is a state of being as well as a state of doing. On top of that, it is also a state of thinking. I suspect that you define sin in a way that excludes a state of being. Every postlapsarian I know does. Am I right? If we take that definition, many verses fall into place. But then, Saul the Pharisee would also have been fine. Do you know of any inspired passages that describe sin as a state of being? Here's what I've read about it: Now, we want to understand what sin is--that it is the transgression of God's law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. {FW 56.1}
Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}
What is to bring the sinner to the knowledge of his sins unless he knows what sin is? The only definition of sin in the Word of God is given us in 1 John 3:4. "Sin is the transgression of the law." {OHC 141.3}
The only definition we find in the Bible for sin is that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). {1SM 320.1}
Sin is the transgression of the law." This is the only definition of sin. Without the law there can be no transgression. {7BC 951.3} Since sin is the transgression of the law, how can someone be a sin by simply being? M: Some people believe John implies in 1 John 1:6-10 that anyone who believes they have "reached the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" (HP 146) is a liar and the truth is not in them. They assume John is saying nobody can be free from sin, this side of glory, since sin is also a state of being.
A: Not necessarily. It depends on what you think that "condition of sinlessness" is. None of the prophets or apostles ever claimed to be sinless. Men who have lived the closest to God confessed the sinfulness of their natures. Fortunately we do not have to wonder what the "condition of sinlessness" means. Ellen makes it very clear. It is "the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." She also makes it very clear that all may be like Jesus, that all may attain unto perfection of character in the same way Jesus did. Listen: He has borne our sins, in order that through Him we might have moral excellence, and attain unto the perfection of Christian character. {AG 195.5}
So perfect is the character represented which men must have in order to be Christ's disciples that the infidel has said that it is not possible for any human being to attain unto it. But no less a standard must be presented by all who claim to be children of God. Infidels know not that celestial aid is provided for all who seek for it by faith. Every provision has been made in behalf of every soul who shall seek to be a partaker of the divine nature and be complete in Jesus Christ. Every defect is to be discerned and cut away from the character with an unsparing decision. {HP 201.2}
It is natural for us to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think; but although it is painful for us to know ourselves as we really are, yet we should pray that God will reveal us to ourselves, even as He sees us. But we should not cease to pray when we have simply asked for a revelation of ourselves; we should pray that Jesus may be revealed to us as a sin-pardoning Saviour. When we see Jesus as He is, earnest desires should awaken in our hearts to be rid of self, that we may be filled with all the fullness of Christ. When this is our experience, we shall do good to one another, and use all the means within our reach to attain unto godliness. We must cleanse our souls from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and perfect holiness in the fear of God. {1SM 312.5}
There are many who profess Christ, but who never become mature Christians. They admit that man is fallen, that his faculties are weakened, that he is unfitted for moral achievement, but they say that Christ has borne all the burden, all the suffering, all the self-denial, and they are willing to let Him bear it. They say that there is nothing for them to do but to believe; but Christ said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24). {1SM 313.3}
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106386
12/22/08 09:19 PM
12/22/08 09:19 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I suspect that you define sin in a way that excludes a state of being. Every postlapsarian I know does. Am I right? Here's something Waggoner wrote: Sin is in every fiber of our being by nature. We are born in sin, and our life is sin, so that sin can not be taken from us without taking our life. What I need is freedom from my own personal sin,--that sin which not only has been committed by me personally, but which dwells in the heart,--the sin which constitutes the whole of my life. (The Glad Tidings)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: asygo]
#106387
12/22/08 09:43 PM
12/22/08 09:43 PM
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M: In my previous post I quoted Ellen comparing the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of saints. Both are of the same origin. Both are the result of combining sinful human nature and sinless divine nature.
A: But not combining the sinless divine nature with the sinful human corruption. We have a fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. In such a nature was Jesus tempted. He became like us so we can become like Him. He inherited the form and likeness of men. Jesus "took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." Listen: Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. {4BC 1147.4}
Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. He took our infirmities. He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. {5BC 1124.2}
Jesus is the perfect pattern, and it is the duty and privilege of every child and youth to copy the pattern. Let children bear in mind that the child Jesus had taken upon Himself human nature, and was in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was tempted of Satan as all children are tempted. {SD 128.2}
By holiness in the daily life we are to reveal Christ to those around us. Corrupt human nature is to be subdued, not exalted. Thus only can we become pure and undefiled. We are to be humble, faithful men and women. {8T 234.2}
He who was once a sinful human being may be refined and purified through the imparted merits of Christ, and stand before his fellow men as a laborer together with God. {TDG 151.4}
The higher attributes of His being it is our privilege to have, if we will, through the provisions He has made, appropriate these blessings and diligently cultivate the good in the place of the evil. We have reason, conscience, memory, will, affections--all the attributes a human being can possess. Through the provision made when God and the Son of God made a covenant to rescue man from the bondage of Satan, every facility was provided that human nature should come into union with His divine nature. In such a nature was our Lord tempted. {3SM 130.2} Apart from partaking of the divine nature, we cannot use the faculties of human nature to produce righteous fruit. However, while partaking of the divine nature we are empowered to use the exact same faculties of human nature and produce righteous fruits. This is precisely what Jesus did. M: Most people are unwilling to say Jesus' righteousness was unacceptable to the Father, therefore, and for the same reasons, they should be able to say the righteousness of saints is also acceptable to the Father.
A: It is, if we agree that it is Christ's righteousness imputed, not imparted. Imparted righteousness has its place, but not here. Our title to heaven is 100% imputed righteousness. That's taught in 1SM 344. The imputed blood and righteousness of Jesus serves one purpose - to cover our past sins. It is not needed to cover the righteous fruits we produce while partaking of the divine nature. Jesus produced the same righteous fruits we produce while partaking of the divine nature, and very few people are willing to say His fruits required a covering of blood.
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106389
12/22/08 10:08 PM
12/22/08 10:08 PM
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Here are some statements regarding the imputed righteousness of Christ. It should be evident that the imputed righteousness of Christ involves more than merely covering past sins, or a legal declaration. We aim too low. The mark is much higher. Our minds need expansion, that we may comprehend the significance of the provision of God. We are to reflect the highest attributes of the character of God. . . . The law of God is the exalted standard to which we are to attain through the imputed righteousness of Christ. (OHC 364;ellipsis original) The righteousness of Christ laid upon us will draw upon us the most precious blessings in this life, and will bestow upon us everlasting life in the kingdom of God. (OHC 78; the context is dealing with imputed righteousness) Righteousness of Christ imputed to men means holiness, uprightness, purity.(Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, page 134) The redemption that was wrought out for us by our Lord on the cross of Calvary was to bring us to obedience to the law of God, making it possible, through His righteousness imputed to us, to keep the law of God. (The Upward Look, 209) Justification is the reward of faith in the righteousness of Christ. His imputed righteousness brings everyone who accepts Him as a personal Saviour into conformity to the will of God. (MR 18, p. 96) Only the covering which Christ Himself has provided can make us meet to appear in God's presence. This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul. "I counsel thee," He says, "to buy of me . . . white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed. . . ." Revelation 3:18.
This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. . . .
By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.
Those who . . . accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. (FILB 113; ellipsis original)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: Tom]
#106475
12/24/08 06:56 PM
12/24/08 06:56 PM
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Tom, you seem to think the imputed righteousness of Jesus empowers people to obey the law of God. If so, how does it differ from the imparted righteousness of Jesus?
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Re: Is this person saved or lost?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106486
12/24/08 09:23 PM
12/24/08 09:23 PM
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Apart from my comment that more than simply a legal declaration or a covering of past sins is involved, I just quoted from Ellen White. You're coming to a conclusion based on her words, not mine. So I think I could conclude, *you* seem to think the imputed righteousness of Jesus empowers people to obey the law of God (or, at least, that this is what EGW's words are saying, since this is what you asked me). Is this conclusion correct?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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