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Re: The Lower and Higher Natures by Kevin D Paulson
[Re: Daryl]
#106656
12/28/08 02:59 PM
12/28/08 02:59 PM
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Here is how Kevin D Paulson introduces his article from that link: Three Ellen White statements are often used by some to prove that the human Christ didn't inherit the same fallen tendencies we inherit. Once these three statements are understood, in the light of both Scripture and the whole of Ellen White's writings, the current Adventist discussion on the nature of Christ is easily settled.
These three statements are as follows:
Be careful, exceedingly careful, as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. . . . He could have sinned, He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity (1).
He (Christ) is a brother in our infirmities, but not in possessing like passions. As the sinless one, His nature recoiled from evil (2).
He was a mighty Petitioner, not possessing the passions of our human, fallen natures, but compassed with like infirmities, tempted in all points like as we are (3).
Other statements seem, on the surface, to teach just the opposite:
Though He (Christ) had all the strength of passion of humanity, never did He yield to temptation to do one single act which was not pure and elevating and ennobling (4).
The words of Christ encourage parents to bring their little ones to Jesus. They may be wayward, and possess passions like those of humanity, but this should not deter us from bringing them to Christ. He blessed children that were possessed of passions like His own (5).
By a word Christ could have mastered the powers of Satan. But He came into the world that He might endure every test, every provocation, that it is possible for human beings to bear and yet not be provoked or impassioned, or retaliate in word, in spirit, or in action (6).
It is obvious that the passions described in the last three statements refer to sinful passions, those that tempt to impurity, waywardness, and provocation. We read that though Jesus had all the strength of human passion, He never yielded to temptation to do anything impure or ignoble. We read that even if our children are wayward, possessing passions like those of humanity, this shouldn't discourage us from bringing them to Christ, since He blessed children who had these very passions, which were "like His own."
Are these two sets of statements contradictory? Or do we need to dig deeper into what God is saying?
Any thoughts on any of the above quoted material at the beginning of his article before we look at what's next?
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Re: The Lower and Higher Natures by Kevin D Paulson
[Re: teresaq]
#106667
12/28/08 06:52 PM
12/28/08 06:52 PM
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Under "Practical Relevance" he writes: Where we stand on this issue makes all the difference in the practical struggles of our lives. Its relevance is heard in the privacy of the predawn devotional hour, as a young man pleads for strength to defeat the forces of lust, only to be comforted by the awareness that His Saviour vanquished these very temptations (82). Its importance is felt in the executive office and construction yard, as frustrations and irritations are met with the confidence that our Lord subdued these very feelings (83). Its splendor breaks like sunshine in the heart of a teenage daughter whose family has a history of incest, as she learns that this was part of Jesus' family lineage also (Gen. 19:32-38; Ruth 4:10; Matt. 1:5).
A few years ago a denominational editor wrote, regarding the continuing debate on this subject in the church: "How I wish that we could turn our energies from fighting over Him (Christ) and instead contemplate Him" (84). I appreciate his concern. I too wish we would all contemplate Christ more. But it will do not good to contemplate a false christ, a sterilized saviour who never contended with the frustrations, urges, and hormones of fallen humanity. As we find our way through the veritable minefield that is life, the inspired assurance of a truly relevant Saviour becomes more precious than all beside.
This is not, as some believe, some abstract quarrel over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! It is an issue of supremely practical relevance. For this reason, not for any perverse love of argument, this issue will not go away.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Lower and Higher Natures by Kevin D Paulson
[Re: Tom]
#106672
12/28/08 07:17 PM
12/28/08 07:17 PM
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Where we stand on this issue makes all the difference in the practical struggles of our lives. Its relevance is heard in the privacy of the predawn devotional hour, as a young man pleads for strength to defeat the forces of lust, only to be comforted by the awareness that His Saviour vanquished these very temptations (82). Its importance is felt in the executive office and construction yard, as frustrations and irritations are met with the confidence that our Lord subdued these very feelings (83). Its splendor breaks like sunshine in the heart of a teenage daughter whose family has a history of incest, as she learns that this was part of Jesus' family lineage also (Gen. 19:32-38; Ruth 4:10; Matt. 1:5). im not going to say that is not true for someone. it is not true for me. what inspires me to be like Him is reading how much He loved....when i think about the miles He walked to reach people....there must be a reason the bible focuses on what He did for people instead of the temptations He resisted.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: The Lower and Higher Natures by Kevin D Paulson
[Re: Tom]
#106674
12/28/08 07:44 PM
12/28/08 07:44 PM
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Jesus became like us so we can be like Him. I like how Kevin Paulson explains it: Many who hold the pre-Fall view of Christ's humanity will quote Hebrews 7:26, which speaks of Christ being "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners." Yet Ellen White declares that Christians, who according to her still have fleshly natures to subdue (27), are to achieve through heaven's power the same state of purity:
Cherish those things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, and of good report; but put away whatever is unlike our Redeemer. . . . Every soul that gains eternal life must be like Christ, "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners." (Heb. 7:26) (28).
The grace of Christ alone can change your heart and then you will reflect the image of the Lord Jesus. God calls upon us to be like Him -- pure, holy, and undefiled. We are to bear the divine image (29).
The context of both of the above statements makes it clear that the earthly process of sanctification is being referred to, not the removal of the fleshly nature at glorification. In other words, according to Inspiration, you don't need an unfallen fleshly nature in order to be holy, harmless, undefined, separate from sinners.
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Re: The Lower and Higher Natures by Kevin D Paulson
[Re: teresaq]
#106675
12/28/08 07:46 PM
12/28/08 07:46 PM
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The most important thing to me has been God's character. I agree, teresaq, that this should be the main emphasis (I say "I agree," but it looks like this is where you're coming from as well.)
It's interesting that in the 1895 GCB sermons by Jones, which you quoted from, he starts out by saying that Christ took our fallen nature in order to reveal God to us. I think too much emphasis is placed on being able to overcome as Christ overcame because He took a nature like ours, and not enough on the real issue of the Great Controversy, which is God's character.
I quoted the thing from Paulson in answer to your question regarding Paulson's motivation. I don't think he was looking simply to defend a point of view that he holds, but for the reasons he pointed out.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Lower and Higher Natures by Kevin D Paulson
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106678
12/28/08 08:00 PM
12/28/08 08:00 PM
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this seems to make sense to some of you so im not going to get into it. suffice it to say i wont read paulsons article, other than what i skimmed, nor like articles, because, for me, it confuses the issue and does not feed the soul. Jesus became like us so we can be like Him.
you dont see that as just a bit confusing? should i become an alcoholic so the alcoholic can become like what i was before i became an alcoholic? if Jesus became like me, how is He different? if He is like me than i am like Him.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: The Lower and Higher Natures by Kevin D Paulson
[Re: Tom]
#106685
12/29/08 12:21 AM
12/29/08 12:21 AM
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teresaq, you read A. T. Jones articles, right? What do you think of them? i have read very little of jones or waggoner. i am far more educated in egw, and the bible and neither one of those seem to take things to the level some writers do. i firmly believe that these sinful/sinless nature and "begottener" debates as well as the other myriad subjects we find to discuss-myself probably being the worst-is keeping us from what will save us. i have been rereading jones 95 sermons here and there but have decided to stay mainly with what she specifically refers to: I stated that I had heard precious truths uttered that I could respond to with all my heart, for had not these great and glorious truths, the righteousness of Christ and the entire sacrifice made in behalf of man, been imprinted indelibly on my mind by the Spirit of God? Has not this subject been presented in the testimonies again and again? When the Lord had given to my brethren the burden to proclaim this message I felt inexpressibly grateful to God, for I knew it was the message for this time. {3SM 172.1} The third angel's message is the proclamation of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. The commandments of God have been proclaimed, but the faith of Jesus Christ has not been proclaimed by Seventh-day Adventists as of equal importance, the law and the gospel going hand in hand. I cannot find language to express this subject in its fullness. {3SM 172.2} "The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.3} The only safety for the Israelites was blood upon the doorposts. God said, "When I see the blood, I will pass over you" (Exodus 12:13). All other devices for safety would be without avail. Nothing but the blood on the doorposts would bar the way that the angel of death should not enter. There is salvation for the sinner in the blood of Jesus Christ alone, which cleanseth us from all sin. The man with a cultivated intellect may have vast stores of knowledge, he may engage in theological speculations, he may be great and honored of men and be considered the repository of knowledge, but unless he has a saving knowledge of Christ crucified for him, and by faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ, he is lost. Christ "was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). "Saved by the blood of Jesus Christ," will be our only hope for time and our song throughout eternity. {3SM 172.4} i ask again, do we know what that message is? do we study it til we have it down? do we practice it?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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