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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10681
08/19/04 09:32 PM
08/19/04 09:32 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 135
U.S.
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There is a difference I think between having God love us (the saved and the lost) while insisting that we allow Him be our Lord and Master or instead expecting Him to love us in a wishy-washy sentimental way that would allow us to be arrogant and presumptious and self destructive.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10682
08/19/04 10:20 PM
08/19/04 10:20 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Originally posted by danielw:
BTW, God does not just "allow" the wicked to die at the end, he physically, actively, burns them up. Re-read the flood story again to see how God actively destroys sometimes. No doubt it hurts him too, but he is going to deal with the sin problem once and for all in the near future. Let's get ready!
It is sin that destroys, Dnaiel-san. That is what God is trying to save us from. "Every man who is lost destroys himself." (PH149 - 35,36)
"It will be seen that Satan's rebllion against God has resulted in ruin to himself, and to all that choose to become his subjects. He has represented that great good would result from transgression; but it will be seen that 'the wages of sin is death.' Rom. 6:23"(FLB - 357)
"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.... When men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest." GC 35, 36.
"This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is 'alienated from the life of God.' Christ says, 'All they that hate Me love death.' Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." DA 763, 764.
Destruction takes place when the glory of God meets with sin. Sin cannot abide in God's presence. God is a consuming fire. Isaiah says, "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously." (Isaiah 33:16, 17).
God is love, and that love is a consuming fire. Sin cannot abide in the presence of God, but the righteous can. God does not change. He is what He is. But while the righteous can abide with the devouring fire that is God, sin cannot, so those who choose to cling to sin will be destroyed.
Please note "this is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God."
This is the important point.
It is NOT an act of arbitrary power.
It is true there is language in inspiration which speaks of God destroying the wicked, but we should bear in mind that inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits. This is reasonable, since God is sovereign over His universe. For example, Isaiah tells us that God created evil. (He actually quotes God as saying that "I create evil" Isaiah 45:7). In other spots God is presented as sending evil spirits to lie in His behalf.
There are two problems with presenting God as being arbitrarily responsible for the death of the wicked. First of all, it does a terrible misjustice to His character. Secondly, it makes light of the destructive power of sin. The idea is that sin in itself is not so bad, and if it weren't for God, we could live forever with it. But sin is a hideous murderer, from whose power God longs to deliver us.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10683
08/20/04 07:15 PM
08/20/04 07:15 PM
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While it's true that sin is the ultimate destroyer, God does actually kill: "The Lord rained brimstone and fire out of heaven upon the cities [Sodom and Gomorrah] and the fruitful plain;..."
{PP 162.2}
"God visited them [the sons of Aaron] with His wrath; fire went forth from His presence and destroyed them."
{3T 295.2}
"Fire flashing from the cloud [of the Lord's presence] consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense."
{PP 401.1} (Korah's rebellion)
"The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits."
{GC 614.2}
"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. . . It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace."
{GC 543.3}
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10684
08/20/04 09:46 PM
08/20/04 09:46 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Hey, you're getting into a whole nuther thread! Well I guess the original post has already digressed anyway. But I see a relation in the impact on how one views God.
Is He someone looking to punish us if we step out of line, or does He in love try to lead us in the direction we need to go to avoid death? Is His motto, "My way, or the highway!"
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10685
08/20/04 09:54 PM
08/20/04 09:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Originally posted by John:
"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. . . It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace."
{GC 543.3}
I guess I should have commented on this one, since it's on the same subject.
I agree that God will destroy the wicked in the lake of fire. However, what causes their destruction? Is it an arbitrary act on the part of God, or is it simply the fact that sin cannot abide in God's presence?
It is sin which is destructive, not God. God is seeking to save us from the destructive power of sin.
God does not need to act arbitrarily to destroy sin. He must act arbitrarily in order to keep sin from destroying, which He has chosen to do in order to allow the goverment of Satan's devisings an opportunity to develop, so that intelligent beings with free will can compare the two governments and make a choice. But sin must come to an end, so God will allow sin to fulfill its destiny, which is death.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10686
08/22/04 12:22 PM
08/22/04 12:22 PM
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OP
Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 265
Japan
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Had a good time in Tokyo, and several people at church showed interest in the original 1858 Great Controversy which was heartening to see ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) I re-read the last few chapters of the above-named book over and over and over in the train. There were a few places that seemed pertinent to this discussion: quote:
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased.
quote:
It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the Sanctuary; but as his work there is finished, as his intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation, and hated reproof.
quote:
The people turned upon the ministers with bitter hate, and reproached them, telling them, You have not warned us. You told us all the world was to be converted, and cried, Peace, peace, to quiet every fear that was aroused. You have not told us of this hour, and those who warned us of it you said were fanatics, and evil men, who would ruin us. But the ministers, I saw, did not escape the wrath of God. Their sufferings were ten-fold greater than their people's.
quote:
The false shepherds were signal objects of Jehovah's wrath. Their eyes had consumed away in their holes, and their tongues in their mouths, while they stood upon their feet.
We have to be about giving the 3rd Angel's Message. Let's re-read it, and follow the simple message to give the warning to all the world; instead of teaching false doctrines dressed in pretty language packaged by psychologists.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10687
08/22/04 01:05 PM
08/22/04 01:05 PM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2013
Veteran Member
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 847
USA
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Maybe I am digressing from the subject, or maybe there is already a thread on here addressing my question.
Over and over I read about "the 1858 edition of the Great Controversy," as though all of the other editions should be ignored. If there is not a thread started on here concerning this, could there be? Are you saying that some of the SOP books are good, and some are not? If we allude to this thought on here, but do not go into depth about it, I feel that we are being asked to accept something without really knowing why.
Would someone please comment. I don't mean just one person, I wonder if there may be others on here who are as puzzled as I, as to why the GC I have in my library is not "the one" to read? It says, "copyright 1888, 1907,1911, by Mrs. E.G.White." "copyright renewed, 1939, and Text copyright, 1950."
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10688
08/22/04 01:31 PM
08/22/04 01:31 PM
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I agree that the GC posts are going off topic and consequently should be further discussed as a separate topic in either the SDA Church Concerns forum or in the SDA Church Issues forum.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10689
08/24/04 02:20 AM
08/24/04 02:20 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
I agree that the GC posts are going off topic and consequently should be further discussed as a separate topic in either the SDA Church Concerns forum or in the SDA Church Issues forum.
The question of unconditional love has to do with God's character. Why does He love us? Is His love subject to conditions? What happens if we don't meet those conditions?
One view of God sees God as presenting conditions which must be met, and if they're not, then the sinner is subject to God's wrath. It sees "uncoditional love" as a dangerous idea, because it leads to universalism and undercuts the seriousness of sin.
Another view sees unconditional love as an essential part of God's character, and that there is no danger of leading to univeralism or undercutting the seriousness of sin. Universalism is not a danger because, although God would be willing to allow the wicked into heaven if He could, because He loves them, the fact of the matter is, He can't. They have unfitted themselves for heaven. Victory of sin, according to this view, is fueled, not by fear of suffering the wrath of God if the conditions are not met, but out of appreciation for His wonderful gift in sacrificing His Son.
I'm writing this because I see the quotes from the Great Controversy as related to this topic. I can see why danielw is quoting the quotes he is, and I also see why I and others have been citing the quotes we have.
What the poster was afraid might be off topic (as I understood the post) was not the GC posts themselves, but the question relating to different versions of the GC.
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Re: God's love not unconditional
#10690
08/23/04 04:09 PM
08/23/04 04:09 PM
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quote:
What the poster was afraid might be off topic (as I understood the post) was not the GC posts themselves, but the question relating to different versions of the GC.
That's the way I read it as well.
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