I guess what I am trying to say with the parent-child unconditional scenario is that God loves all of us to the extent that God sent His only begotten Son to all of us as stated in John 3:16 with no conditions attached.

Isn't this an established fact?

And if so, isn't this also a sure sign of God's unconditional love for all of us?

When Jesus said what He said below regarding the people of Jerusalem how did He feel about that?

quote:

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Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

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Didn't He still love them?

Why did He say it the way He did, unless He still loved them in spite of what they were doing to Him and what He saw would happen to them as a result of their rejection of Him?

Hi Pastor Mike:

The context of Matthew 6:24 is regarding two things.

One is one cannot serve or love two masters.
Second the word Mammon also means deify or deified, which means: to make a god, to look upon as a god.
Third satan has made himself a god of this earth.

If we love anything more than God, then we make of that thing a god. Whether it be family, money, food, rock stars, etc.

What Jesus is saying is that one cannot love your parents or spouse or children MORE than Me. If you do try you will eventually hate one and love the other. What Jesus is saying is as black and white as it can get.

If the love that is required to love someone takes away our ability to love God supremely, we will fall short of our love for God. Jesus used the word hate for a reason. He is asking of us all or nothing. It could very well require of us to hate our family so that we can surrender ourselves totally to Him.

John 8:44 indeed states satan is the originator of sin. Since this is true then satan is sin because that is all satan is and can be. The very foundation and character of satan is manafested in sin. The whole being of satan is consumed in the hatred and evil.

The Spirit of Prophecy states very clearly that on the day of Calvary the door was closed forever for satan. One of the best chapters in the Desire of Ages is "It is Finished." Clearly is revealed what is satan's character and the contrast that God gives to mankind and where satan stands now in the eyes and mind of God.

Yes I agree with you regarding Matthew 5:43. But let us remember that what I am speaking of and what you are speaking of is two different time periods when it comes to mankind. Again we must look to a time when Jesus will leave the Most Holy Place. All mercy will be closed on that moment for all of mankind that has rejected the love of God. It is this and only then we will be allowed to read the heart of man and see that they have become so much a part of sin that they are sin.

Starting with Proverbs 6:16

16: These six things doth the Lord hate; yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18: a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19: a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.

Now I must ask three questions.

Does this verse not state that the Lord does hate?
In this discription can we not see satan?
Then therefore God does hate satan?

Liane

Yes, I agree, however, even though God hates our sinful acts, He still loves us and wants to save us from our sins.

He loves the sinner but hates the sin.

Hating our actions doesn't mean He hates the persons behind those actions.

Another thought just struck me.

Could we be getting confused about God's love and God's promises; God's love being unconditional and God's promises being conditional?

Hi Brother Daryl:

Yes you are correct about the present time. God does separate the sinner from their sins in His love for them. Today and until our High Priest leaves the Most Holy Place, God will continue to out of His love for us respond with justice and mercy.

What I am speaking of is not present time, but when the end of the world comes and the plagues come and when those of mankind have rejected His love that the wall between the sinner and the sin will be gone by the blood of Jesus and the cleansing of the Heavenly Most Holy Place will have been finished.

the Bible says: If you love me you will keep my commandments. John 14:15. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall have eternal life. John 3:16.

Here are two examples of conditional love from the Bible as stated by God. The condition in which we show our love for God is based on us keeping His commandments. The condition for eternal life is based in believing in His only begotten Son. There are many more throughout the Bible.

The Godhead does set conditions in regards to love, not only His, but ours.

We must separate what God is and His emotions. The Bible states "God is love." "God is hate" is no where to be found. So when the Bible speaks of God hating we must look at it in the context in which God is speaking.

In the book of Malachi 1:3 God states: and I hated Esau...

This does not state he hated Esau deeds, but hated Esau.

The definition of hate is: detestation. To dislike intensely, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe. To hate in general terms signifying intense aversion, and can be accompanied by ill will.

God never desires or causes his hate to be accompanied by ill will. this is the difference between when a person hates and God hates. When we understand this then we can understand how God can indeed hate even though He is love.

Liane

I found the reference to Malachi 1:3 interesting, therefore, I looked it up in our SDA Bible Commentary and here is what I read there.

quote:

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3. Hated Esau. From the context it seems that Edom, the nation of Esau’s descendants, is primarily referred to here rather than the man Esau himself. The use of the word “hate” is a typical Oriental hyperbole (see Gen. 29:33; Deut. 21:15; see on Ps. 119:136), and should not be taken in its strongest sense. The Lord here makes plain His preference for Jacob and his descendants over Esau and his descendants. This preference arose, of course, out of the relationship of the two brothers to God. Because Jacob was spiritually-minded and had soul-saving faith, loving the things of God, his sins were forgiven and he enjoyed God’s favor and fellowship. Esau, on the other hand, was a worldly-minded, “profane person,” with no desire or love for divine things, and so he put himself outside the divine favor (Heb. 12:16, 17).

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It, therefore, seems that God didn't hate Esau in the sense that we understand the word today.

I guess that is why we need to look at it in the sense in which the word was used back then.

What do you mean by saying God's love is conditional? What would the condition be? Obedience? (that's the only possible candidate that comes to mind)

Would this mean that God loves us because we are obedient, and will stop loving us if we quit? Or, this is the way God becomes after Christ finishes His ministration in the Most Holy Place?

Hi Brother Daryl and Tom:

Daryl:

First, I am leaving tomorrow morning and will not be back until late Wednesday so I will not be able to get online and post until Thursday morning.

Very clearly the verse of Malachi 1:3 is referring to Esau and his decendants. The word hated is pass tense, there for God is clearly speaking of Esau and his decendants.

There is no statement of this verse from the Spirit of Prophecy. So one must look to the Holy Spirit and the wisdom given to us.

Let us look to the definition of hate I gave on a previous post:

The definition of hate is: detestation. To dislike intensely, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe. To hate in general terms signifying intense aversion, and can be accompanied by ill will.

There is a big difference between intense dislike or detest to abhor or loathe someone.

First let me say that God never hates anyone to the point to be accompanied by ill will. Only on a human level and satan with the fallen angels would hate go to that point.

Also when I think of Esau at that time when God hated him I believe it was in the terms of dislike, which I would believe would be a lesser form of hate.

What I believe is that when God will hate the wicked in the latter days it will be a stronger form of hate such as abhor, abominate and loathe. They will disgusting vile beings in which all mercy will have been swept away and only justice will prevail.

When Jesus tells us not to hate our enemies, he was speaking in the terms that we often think of hate in which when we do hate someone we often desire ill will towards them at the same time. This brings us down to the level in which satan works and is dangerous to our souls. It is better to love our enemy than to hate because of what hate does to our character and state of being.

When the time Jesus will leave the Most Holy Place we will have a faith and character so manifested like Jesus that we will understand better the emotion of this hate. We will have an understanding of satan and the beings that followed satan we will understand this form of hate that we will see and experience ourselves with God.

Yes hate comes in different forms and levels and thoughts and emotions, even with God, but nonetheless God hated Esau. There is no translation error, no mistake, the word hate is there and was used for a reason and we must seek the wisdom of God and understand.

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Tom:

We must separate what God is and what God's actions are toward us when He loves us. The Bible says: God Is Love. This means that everything God is is made up from, with, and by love. It is the very being of His character. There is nothing like it in the universe.

But God's attitude and relationship with man is a covenant and everything He does with us is based on an action and reaction. God tells us if you love me keep my commandments.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love,....

So Jesus saying if you do not keep His commandments you will not abide in His love?

Love and obedience is the whole foundation of the Great Controversy. It started with satan in heaven, continued on this earth when our first parents fell and has continued to this day and will end when Jesus comes.

Liane

Interesting thoughts, Tom.
Loving response to His love entails obedience,faithfulness,loyalty in my opinion, but is not the spring of that loving response.
I love Him because He is irresistable, not because if I don't I will fry.
Intellectual or a knee-jerk response to religious concepts does not smack of a loving response, but a fear or rigidity concerning God's true character.