Indeed, so common you seem to think it is unnecessary to post inspired quotes to support it. There is nothing more common, however, than he said, she said, and, might I add, nothing more worthless.


So is he said, she said. You can settle this pursuit by quoting an inspired author whose insight is based on what God revealed to them about it. Otherwise, you’re trying to build a cabin without any tools or materials. Simply saying it is common knowledge that people who lived before the Exodus knew much more about Sabbath-keeping than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 is hearsay, naysay, and gainsay.


Again, I agree truths were passed on orally until Moses wrote it down in Genesis. But this doesn’t prove people who lived before the Exodus knew way more about Sabbath-keeping than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11. This quote, therefore, does not prove your assertion. It does not give you the leg you need to stand on to prove your point. In fact, the only thing it proves, is that there was “a line of holy men” who lived before the Flood and that only the prominent ones were named. It doesn’t give any details, it doesn’t say what they taught or believed.


Your answer surprises me. I thought you were going to say, yes, they lack enough evidence to enable people to obey God intelligently and not slavishly. So, please explain why you think they contain enough evidence to obey God intelligently. What is the evidence?


But your “answer” required me to believe what you said because you said so. You didn’t provide any inspired passages to support your assertion. All along you have been insisting slavish obedience consists of obeying God for no better reason than because He said so.


Your answer to my question was needed to determine if I agree with you wrote. You wrote, “Without considering evidence, it would be very easy to be under the delusion that one is obeying God while actually obeying the enemy.” What evidence? You also wrote, “[Slavish obedience is] opposed to ‘intelligent appreciation.’ Jesus describes it in terms of not knowing what the master is doing.” Where did Jesus define it this way?

Here’s the quote: “God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.” {GC 541.3}

“God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience.” The way I read it, “slavish obedience” is purely hypothetical. Her definition involves God doing something He has never done, nor will He ever do, namely, forcing the will and judgment of someone to exact obedience from them. That's her definition of slavish obedience.

You wrote, “In response to your example, it doesn't apply, as Moses's faith was based on reason, evidence and understanding.” Upon what evidence did Moses obey God’s command to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? What were his reasons? What did he understand? Why did it make sense to him?


Again, your answer surprises me. I thought you would say, yes, rendering obedience in response to, Because I said so, is slavish.

You wrote, “So if one is unwilling to keep step with God, God will humble Himself and keep step with man. The Old and New Covenant is a perfect illustration of this theme.” What do you mean if you don’t mean “the obedience God required under the OC was slavish, that He compromised and required it to accommodate their less than favorable circumstances and mind set”?


Here’s how Ellen describes it:


The quotes posted above make it clear that the covenant the Jews made with God included the ten commandments, the law of Moses, the tabernacle, and the ceremonial services. They also make it clear that the thrice repeated pledge, “All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient” is the same pledge God expects from us today. “This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days.” Unlike the Jews, however, we must rely on the indwelling Spirit of God to empower us to live in harmony with the law He writes on the tables of our heart.

So again, I need to ask, Are you saying that the obedience the Jews rendered in fulfilling the requirements of the OC was slavish?

Oh, now I see. Thank you. Are you sure Ellen and Elliot are saying the same thing? Please consider the following passages:

I am simply asking questions. Is, Because I said so, sufficient evidence or reason to obey God intelligently and not slavishly? You seem to think not. Why?


Explain why. What did they do differently than the faithful few you mentioned that resulted in slavish obedience?


What is the evidence, the abundant testimony that appeals to our reason? Is it based on more than a “Thus saith the Lord” or “It is written”? If so, please explain.

Of course she's saying the same thing! She wrote:



Then shortly after:



So she said:

1)If Waggoner's position agreed with hers (in PP), then it was truth. (then shortly after)
2)Waggoner's position was truth.

Therefore it's clear that in her opinion Waggoner's position agreed with hers. So unless what you quoted from her in the other places (besides PP) disagrees with her position in PP, then Waggoner's position (at least in her opinion) must agree with that too.

Which scriptures did Jesus quote which contain more information than a mere "Thus saith the Lord"? Also, where in the Pentateuch did Moses explain that the animal sacrifices symbolize the future sacrifice of the Son of God?

Prove it. What are the key points they hold in common? On what points do they differ? Lay the quotes side-by-side so can compare them. Also, do you think she contradicted what she wrote in PP in the quotes I posted above? If so, please explain.

PS - How can Letter 30 be referring back to Letter 82 (referring to the quotes you posted above)?

PPS - I just researched it and Letter 82 was written to Willie and May White on 9 March 1890, and Letter 32 was written to the same couple on 10 March 1890.

i dont understand. are you saying that the statements above cancel out this statement which is equally hers?

What do you mean you're simply "asking questions"? You asked if "evidence alone" was slavish obedience. What does this mean? If it's nonsense, please refrain from asking questions which are nonsense. If it's not nonsense, please explains what it means.

Regarding "because I said so," Jesus' actions on the Road to Emmaus demonstrates that this is not what God desires. In John 15, Jesus explains the difference between servants (slaves) and friends. The servant (slave) does not know what the master is doing. Jesus desires that we know what the master is doing. God never asks us to believe without giving us sufficient evidence upon which to establish our faith. "Because I said so," is not evidence. Satan can say that as well as God.



The Pharisees had a religion based on rules. There's was not a heart obedience based on love for God. The faithful few responded to God's love, admired His character, and were enthralled by His goodness.



Yes, it's more than that. There are hundreds of creation accounts. A claim somewhere that says that some God created something isn't evidence. As to what the testimony is regarding God, what do you think? I realize I'm answering a question with a question, but you've asked me many questions, which I've answered, and I haven't been asking you any, so I'll defer on this one. The reason is, I'd be surprised if you didn't know what the evidence is regarding God's existence, so why you're asking this is a bit of a mystery to me. Unless you really do have a different idea regarding what this evidence is.

t: i dont understand. are you saying that the statements above cancel out this statement which is equally hers?


M: I see harmony in her statements. Do you see harmony in them? And, do you see harmony between Ellen and Elliot?

Found this interesting quote:

He [Ellen White's angelic guide] stretched out his arms toward Dr. Waggoner and to you, Elder Butler, and said in substance as follows: "Neither have all the light upon the law, neither position is perfect. 'Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart' (Psalm 97:11). There are hundreds that know not why they believe the doctrines they do."--Letter 21, 1888, pp. 6,7. (To G. I. Butler, October 14, 1888.) {9MR 218.1}