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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107046
01/03/09 11:22 PM
01/03/09 11:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tammy
When people talk about "the flesh" and how our flesh will always desire sin....that is just an excuse to sin. What is your flesh? Your arms, your legs, your body, right? Your arms, legs and your body, they don't desire sin....they only do the bidding of your mind & your heart...it all has to do with the mind, not "the flesh"....that is why Jesus said, "Let this mind be in you..." and "I will give you a new heart..."

Tammy, compare what you wrote with the following description:

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2} End Quote

Also, please consider the following insights concerning inherited and cultivated tendencies, inclinations, propensities:

Quote:
Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

The first experience of the new convert is happy and joyous; but trials come; the perplexities of life are to be met; sinful traits of character that have not been controlled, strive for the mastery, and too frequently obtain it. {SD 89.3}

Self will strive for the mastery and will be opposed to the work of bringing the life and thoughts, the will and affections, into subjection to the will of Christ. {2T 687.3}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. {MB 141.3}

Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. {VSS 304.4}

If before the birth of her child she is self-indulgent, if she is selfish, impatient, and exacting, these traits will be reflected in the disposition of the child. Thus many children have received as a birthright almost unconquerable tendencies to evil. {AH 256.1}

Each soul inherits certain unChristlike traits of character. It is the grand and noble work of a lifetime to keep under control these tendencies to wrong. {HP 231.2}

Children inherit inclinations to wrong, but they also have many lovely traits of character. These should be strengthened and developed, while the tendencies to evil should be carefully guarded against and repressed. {1MCP 144.4}

Men may possess capabilities given them in trust of God, but if they are not humble men, daily converted men, as vessels of honor, they will do the greater harm because of their capabilities. If they are not learners of Christ Jesus, if they do not pray and keep their natural hereditary and cultivated tendencies under control, traits of character that God abhors will pervert the judgment of those who associate with them. {4BC 1138.5}

It will be well to remember that tendencies of character are transmitted from parents to children. Meditate seriously upon these things, and then in the fear of God gird on the armor for a life conflict with hereditary tendencies, imitating none but the divine Pattern. {4T 438.2}

Fear lest your will shall not be held in subjection to Christ's will, lest your hereditary and cultivated traits of character shall control your life. {COL 161.1}

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. {CH 440.1}

Above you wrote, "When people talk about "the flesh" and how our flesh will always desire sin....that is just an excuse to sin." How do you reconcile this idea with the insights posted above?

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #107047
01/03/09 11:53 PM
01/03/09 11:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tammy
We were born different than Jesus. Jesus never needed to be reborn. We ALL need to be reborn. Jesus came into this world with a converted heart...we come into this world with a heart separated from God. But that is the beauty of the Gospel! Jesus reaches us where we are, and offers to us, the same advantage He had, that of a new heart, and the strength and desire to live a Christian life.

Jesus came into this world with the faculties of His mind and body under the controlling influence of the Holy Spirit. That He did not sin like every other child is a mystery that is left unexplained. "It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin." {5BC 1128.6}

The will is our power of choice. It orchestrates all other aspects of human nature. Our will is under the influence and control of Satan until we surrender it to the influence and control of Christ. For instance, the will decides whether our mind is slave or master of our sinful flesh. It also determines whether we develop old man (sinful) or new man (sinless) traits of character.

Here is how Ellen describes the will and it's importance in resisting sin, self, and Satan, and in imitating the sinless example of Jesus:

Quote:
The will is the governing power in the nature of man. If the will is set right, all the rest of the being will come under its sway. The will is not the taste or the inclination, but it is the choice, the deciding power, the kingly power, which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or to disobedience. (TE 113)

Every child should understand the true force of the will. He should be led to see how great is the responsibility involved in this gift. The will is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or choice. Every human being possessed of reason has power to choose the right. In every experience of life, God’s word to us is, “Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” Joshua 24:15. Everyone may place his will on the side of the will of God, may choose to obey Him, and by thus linking himself with divine agencies, he may stand where nothing can force him to do evil. In every youth, every child, lies the power, by the help of God, to form a character of integrity and to live a life of usefulness. (ED 289)

You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. (5T 515)

But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: “Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure.” When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ’s character. (5T 515)

Our will is to be yielded to Him, that we may receive it again, purified and refined, and so linked in sympathy with the Divine that He can pour through us the tides of His love and power. (MB 62) When we place our will in unison with the will of God, the holy obedience that was exemplified in the life of Christ will be seen in our lives. (OHC 107)

This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. It was not thus with Jesus when He was born.

However, like Jesus, who decided to be born with His will under the controlling influence of the Holy Spirit, so too, we may decide to be spiritually born with our will on the side of God. When we place our will in unison with the will of God, the holy obedience that was exemplified in the life of Christ will be seen in our lives.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #107054
01/04/09 02:14 AM
01/04/09 02:14 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I have always understood Christs "fallen" human nature, from Ellen White, in the sense that Christ felt hunger, fatigue, etc.. things Adam never felt in his pre-fall state.


It doesn't seem she limits her focus to these things. For one thing, these aren't the issues we primarily have difficulties with.

Here's an example of Ellen White speaking of Christ's taking our nature:

Quote:
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)


Please notice the underlined portion. It's hard to believe that when Ellen White spoke of the results being shown in the history of His earthly ancestors (such as Rahab, David, Solomon, etc.) she had in mind that they got hungry and tired.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #107055
01/04/09 02:16 AM
01/04/09 02:16 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Quote:
i have always understood Christs "fallen" human nature, from ellen white, in the sense that Christ felt hunger, fatigue, etc.. things adam never felt in his pre-fall state.


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It is healthy for people to feel hungry between meals. Feeling hungry isn't unique to fallen nature.


i was assuming my statement would be associated with egws several comments regarding Christ and the various times He suffered hunger.

here is one.
Quote:
As in his human strength man could not resist the power of Satan's temptations, Jesus volunteered to undertake the work, and to bear the burden for man, and overcome the power of appetite in his behalf. In man's behalf, he must show self-denial, perseverance, and firmness of principle, paramount to the gnawing pangs of hunger. He must show a power of control stronger than hunger and even death. {2Red 35.1}
When Christ bore the test of temptation upon the point of appetite, he did not stand in beautiful Eden, as did Adam, with the light and love of God seen in everything his eye rested upon; but he was in a barren, desolate wilderness, surrounded with wild beasts. Everything around him was repulsive. With these surroundings, he fasted forty days and forty nights, "and in those days he did eat nothing." He was emaciated through long fasting, and felt the keenest sense of hunger. His visage was indeed marred more than the sons of men. {2Red 35.2}
Christ thus entered upon his life of conflict to overcome the mighty foe, in bearing the very test which Adam failed to endure, that, through successful conflict, he might break the power of Satan, and redeem the race from the disgrace of the fall. {2Red 36.1}
All was lost when Adam yielded to the power of appetite. The Redeemer, in whom both the human and the divine were united, stood in Adam's place, and endured a terrible fast of nearly six weeks. The length of this fast is the strongest evidence of the great sinfulness of debased appetite, and the power it has upon the human family. {2Red 36.2}
The humanity of Christ reached to the very depths of human wretchedness, and identified itself with the weaknesses and necessities of fallen man, while his divine nature grasped the Eternal. His work in bearing the guilt of man's transgression was not to give him license to continue to violate the law of God; for transgression made man a debtor to the law, and Christ himself was paying this debt by his own suffering. The trials and sufferings of Christ were to impress man with a sense of his great sin in breaking the law of God, and to bring him to repentance and obedience to that law, and through obedience to acceptance with God. He would impute his righteousness to man, and so raise him in moral value with God that his efforts to keep the divine law would be acceptable. Christ's work was to reconcile man to God through his human nature, and God to man through his divine nature. {2Red 36.3}


but since we have never had unfallen nature we wouldnt really know if adam and eve did, or did not, feel hunger at any time.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #107063
01/04/09 11:37 AM
01/04/09 11:37 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Tammy
Well, substitute the chocolate for sleezy women...it doesn't matter what the temptation was, Jesus responded the same way every time. You find no record of Him struggling with sexual sin, ever. When he saw a provocative women, His first and only reaction was to help her recover from her sin...lust didn't have any hold on Him whatsoever. After all, she was a child of His.

In what way was Jesus tempted when He saw a sleazy woman? When a holy angel sees a sleazy woman, does he feel tempted? When someone who is abiding in Jesus sees a sleazy woman, is he tempted? What makes the difference, if any, in how and why these three different people experience temptation?
That is the part most of you are missing...you don't have to "feel" a pull to something in order to be tempted by it....check out this quote:

Quote:
-He [Satan] asked the Saviour to bow to his authority, promising that if He would do so, the kingdoms of the world would be His. He pointed Christ to his success in the world, enumerating the principalities and powers that were subject to him. He declared that what the law of Jehovah could not do, he had done. {5BC 1083.4}
But Jesus said, "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." This was to Christ just what the Bible declares it to be--a temptation. Before His sight the tempter held the kingdoms of the world. As Satan saw them, they possessed great external grandeur. But Christ saw them in a different aspect, just as they were--earthly dominions under the power of a tyrant. He saw humanity full of woe, suffering under the oppressive power of Satan. He saw the earth defiled by hatred, revenge, malice, lust, and murder. He saw fiends in the possession of the bodies and souls of men (MS 33, 1911). {5BC 1083.5}


Most people would not consider that a temptation. Jesus saw the devils temptations for what they really were - earthly dominions under the power of a tyrant. He saw humanity full of woe, suffering under the oppressive power of Satan. He saw the earth defiled by hatred, revenge, malice, lust, and murder. He saw fiends in the possession of the bodies and souls of men and yet, clearly she says This was to Christ just what the Bible declares it to be--a temptation. Before His sight the tempter held the kingdoms of the world So you see, one doesn't not need to find a temptation "tempting" in order for it to be a temptation.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tammy Roesch] #107066
01/04/09 11:50 AM
01/04/09 11:50 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
This is such a serious point. Most of you have the wrong understanding that in order to be tempted, you must find the temptation "tempting". That couldn't be further from the truth. Just think about it. Are you tempted to murder someone, to rape someone, or think of the many other horrendous things people do... Most of you would say, no, you are not tempted to do those things...but yet, you want to interpret the verse that says that Jesus was "in all points" tempted like as we are to mean that He was! Do you think you are a better Christian than Jesus? How is it that you are not tempted to do these horrendous things, yet you think that Jesus was????? Can't you see, it is your wrong understanding of temptation that makes you try to make Jesus have the same desires as the unconverted man. And unfortunately, there are many, especially men, who want to think that Jesus had the same lustful desires they have......and that that is part of the normal, Christian, victorious experience. It couldn't be further from the truth.


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tammy Roesch] #107088
01/04/09 06:23 PM
01/04/09 06:23 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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the problem seems to be in seeing this as an historic position. ellen white did unequivocably support jones and waggoner, BUT it was their presentation of the faith of Jesus that she supported.

her writings and the bible are read in light of j and w, instead of j and w being read in the light of the bible and egw.

ellen white criticized the brethern for holding onto their prejudices and rejecting "light" in the message of the faith of Jesus/righteousness by faith, NOT whether Jesus was born somtime back in eternity, nor the views of those regarding Christs humanity.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107099
01/04/09 08:49 PM
01/04/09 08:49 PM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
I agree with you, Teresa...and sadly, the day came when EGW told the church to not listen to J & W....they had gone WAY off the track. They didn't get way off the track over night....Ellen White NEVER got off the track...much safer to read her, you never have to wonder if you are accepting any false doctrine...whereas with J & W, you always have to wonder, "at what point did they begin to lose their way?" "How can I be sure that I don't accept any of the error that they got into?"

I don't have time to post it right now, but I'll post something from Jones that was written in 1895, that I believe was way off...


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tammy Roesch] #107110
01/05/09 12:52 AM
01/05/09 12:52 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
now that i have jones 89 "faith of Jesus" to use as a template i can study them. i believe it deals only with righteousness by faith and is closer in time to what ellen white endorsed in their message.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107130
01/05/09 07:51 AM
01/05/09 07:51 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
One doesn't not need to find a temptation "tempting" in order for it to be a temptation.


This doesn't seem to agree with the idea that temptation is an "ordeal" which one passes through when one is "powerfully influenced" to do something one knows is wrong. Also I'm not seeing why you think Christ didn't find what Satan was presenting Him to be tempting. Ellen White says He immediately turned away when Satan presented this temptation.

Of the first temptation, Ellen White writes that "it was indeed a temptation." Of the third she writes:

Quote:
This last temptation was the most alluring of the three. Satan knew that Christ's life must be one of sorrow, hardship, and conflict. (Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness, page 52)


So the first one indeed a temptation, and the third one was "the most alluring."

Something to bear in mind is what made the temptations so difficult. It is that Christ bore both the sins and nature of man.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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