T: This is what arbitrary is. God's doing something for some reason that you don't understand, but because it makes sense to Him. Arbitrary is not necessarily bad, MM. Judges make arbitrary decisions by exercising their individual discretion. This is exactly what you are suggesting. You ask the question, "Why?" and answer it "Because this makes sense to Him," by which you imply that it doesn't make sense to you, or that there is any explainable reason for what God is doing. This is what arbitrary is.

M:There is nothing arbitrary about it from God’s perspective. My puny perspective doesn’t matter.

There are things God does that make sense to me, but there are also things He does that make no sense to me, and I’m okay with it. I trust His judgment and I believe He will explain it to me one of these days, probably in heaven, so that it makes sense to me too.

T: It's hard to believe that you think that an animal's "love" can fulfill the law. It seems like you have an odd concept of what morality involves. If animals can obey the law, then they can disobey it too presumably. Do you believe they will be judged?

M: No, animals cannot break the law. They are governed by instinct. They cannot not act in harmony with it. God programmed them that way. I’m surprised you are arguing against it. I’m guessing you don’t have a dog.

T: If they act by instinct, how can they obey the law? If they can obey the law, how can they not disobey it? It's also laughable that you try to bring in my personal life into these questions. Because I don't agree that animals can fulfill the law you think I don't have a dog? As if anyone who has a dog would conclude that dogs can fulfill the law!

MM:Right, I forgot you prefer to keeps things impersonal. Bummer. You asked, “If they act by instinct, how can they obey the law?” For the simple reason God designed them to instinctively act in harmony with the law. They have no choice. Just ask any dog owner and they’ll tell you their dogs love them all the time. They will also tell you that such love is heavenly.

The same thing expressed in the positive would read, “This is an act of power on the part of God.” It is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. There is definitely nothing arbitrary about it. He never wields His power arbitrarily.

Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

I don't see how this fits in with the idea that sin results in death because God executes those who sin. In this case, how could Satan die if God "left" him to perish? "Execute" and "leave" are diametrically opposed concepts.

M:Here, I’ll let Jude say it, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Ellen concurs, “The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel.”

T: The "this" is the death of the wicked. MM, it's the *second* death that is the inevitable result of sin. You write that God puts them out of their misery in the midst of their fits of rage, but don't you mean that God causes them inexpressible pain by burning them alive for many hours or many days?

M:The only difference between the first and second deaths is what sinners feel and sense before they die and as they are dying. The fact they will be engulfed with flames is nothing compared to their soul anguish. The flames do serve, though, to prevent them from being distracted with fits of rage against one another.

Again, that sin is not what kills sinners is obvious from the view you advocate, namely, that God must resurrect sinners, judge them, and then expose them to the undiluted firelight of His undiluted presence and glory. I’m not sure what you make of the fact God must use fire from above and fire from below to interrupt their fits of rage against one another.

T: Agreed. So no one should take this literally, since doing so would require doing the very thing you correctly say no one would be tempted to think.

A:I’m glad you agree that Jesus’ paying our sin debt of death to law and justice makes sense. It simply means what Jesus did on the cross satisfies the just and loving demands of law and justice. Death had to happen in consequence of sin. This is one of the many reasons why Jesus had to taste death for us.

You posted DA 762 to prove God made a conscious decision not to let Jesus die because it wouldn’t have worked to woo and win back Lucifer after he was guilty of sinning. I responded by saying it didn’t. You still haven’t posted a quote which does.

Yes, I agree God loves men and angels equally and that if Jesus’ death would have served to woo angels back God would have allowed it.

I believe the death of Jesus to save sinners is the ultimate expression of God’s love, and the fact He felt it would not have served to woo back angels is evidence there was nothing He could do to save them after they ventured to sin. You seem to disagree with this observation. Why?

T: I quoted half a dozen things. I have an idea that you would interpret that "the wages of sin is death" as "God executes those who sin." It's not so easy to interpret the other statements this way. (Actually, it's not that easy to interpret this one that way either, but the other ones even less so. For example, death "is the inevitable result of sin." "The sting of death is sin." "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." It's difficult to understand these verses as meaning, "God will execute those who sin.")

M:It is also difficult to discern from them that God must first resurrect them and then judge them and then expose them to His undiluted firelight - all these things must happen before they pay their sin debt of death in the lake of fire.

T: I've never said anything like this, MM, and I've written hundreds of posts on this subject. I don't understand what's so difficult about quoting something I've said. I also don't understand how you can state things so differently than how I've stated things.

DA 764 says: “God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.” This seems like an explanation of how sin results in death. Don't you think so? If one cuts oneself off from life, doesn't one die?

M:How does one cut oneself off from God? Is there an outlet they unplug themselves from? Are you taking this literally? If not, please explain it.

M: . . . which suggests you believe sinners suffer and die when they come in close proximity to God, which implies you believe they would not suffer and die if God maintained a safe distance.

T: No, MM, I've not suggested this. Out of curiosity, since God is omnipresent, how do you suggest this be done?

M:He has managed to prevent His firelight from consuming sinners with their sins since the fall of A&E, so I envision Him doing the same thing. He also managed to be next to Jesus on the cross in a dark cloud without consuming the sinners in the vicinity. These past 6,000 years proves sinners can live in the same Universe with God without being consumed by the firelight of His glory.

Yes, God would have to continue upholding the laws of nature; otherwise, neither plants, animals, nor humans could survive. If He did this God would not also have to do something else special for sinners to live eternally. All He would have to do is continue upholding the laws of nature. Do you agree?

. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. (MH 417)

I hear you saying when sinners are exposed to the character of God it causes them to die. But earlier you said disconnecting from the source of life is what causes them to die.

“The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.” Here Ellen says the light of God’s glory will slay them. Which is it? Do they disconnect and die or does the light of God’s glory slay them?

Also, in keeping with your tradition of comparing quote with quote, I thought it would be helpful to compare DA and GC. In the following passage Ellen says the fire God rains down on sinners in the midst of their fits of rage, and causes them to suffer soul anguish, is the same fire that burns up the rubble and rubbish of earth. Do you think this is the same fire she spoke about in the DA quote above? If not, why not?

Of course, she says basically the same thing in the following DA quote. She even uses the same quote from Ezekiel 28. The fire that God rains down on the wicked in the midst of their fits of rage, and causes them to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness, is the same fire that burns up the rubble and rubbish of earth. And yet you seem to think this source of fire is symbolic. How do you reconcile this idea with what it sys here in these DA and GC quotes?

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.{DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

T: I don't see any inconsistency here. In the first case, God would be Himself torturing people, assuming burning people alive can be construed as torture (at the very lease, He would be directly causing unimaginable pain to them). In the second, He is caused to withdraw His protection.

How is it that you think God would be capable of burning people alive? I'm not asking on what basis you think He will do this (I know you do so based on your reading of an EW passage and a GC passage) but on what basis you think God would be capable of doing this.

M:Since the objective is punishment it doesn't matter if God 1) permits it to happen or 2) causes it to happen - the outcome is the same.

For example, if the sinners who deserve punishment fall into a pit alive and are crushed to death when it closes up it doesn't matter if God withdrew His protection and allowed it to happen or if He employed the forces of nature as instruments of punishment. Either way God's will and purpose is served.

Listen:

"God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power. {3SG 80.2} End Quote.

By the way, what do you think was the source of fire that killed the 250 priests? "And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." "Fire flashing from the cloud consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense."

You asked, "How is it that you think God would be capable of burning people alive?" What is about God's character that compelled Him to permit or employ fire to burn up sinners alive? In a word - Justice.

Why do you think God permits or employs fire to burn people alive?

I'm asking what is it about God's character that does not allow Him to forgive sinners (or penitent sinners, if you prefer) freely? Again, since the law is a transcript of God's character, it should be possible for you to answer this without reference to the law. In fact, this is the reason I'm asking the question in reference to God's character, so that you will answer the question without reference to the law. Perhaps you can't do this(?)

Regarding Lucifer, there is nothing in inspiration anywhere that says anything about anyone dying in order for Lucifer to be forgiven. If Lucifer had repented, confessing his sin, he would have been forgiven and restored to his position. This is what inspiration tells us.

What's an example of something God does which makes no sense to you?

You're the first person I've met who believes the 10 commandments are fulfilled by dogs.

M; The same thing expressed in the positive would read, “This is an act of power on the part of God.” It is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. There is definitely nothing arbitrary about it. He never wields His power arbitrarily.

T: I disagree.

M:Here, I’ll let Jude say it, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Ellen concurs, “The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel.”

T: I disagree.

Since Lucifer was already able to repent and accept this freely offered pardon, Christ's substitutionary death was not necessary for Lucifer, nor would it have availed anything.

M: Also, in keeping with your tradition of comparing quote with quote, I thought it would be helpful to compare DA and GC. In the following passage Ellen says the fire God rains down on sinners in the midst of their fits of rage, and causes them to suffer soul anguish, is the same fire that burns up the rubble and rubbish of earth. Do you think this is the same fire she spoke about in the DA quote above? If not, why not?

T: I think GC speaks of two fires, one literal and one symbolic.

Also, in keeping with your tradition of comparing quote with quote, I thought it would be helpful to compare DA and GC. In the following passage Ellen says the fire God rains down on sinners in the midst of their fits of rage, and causes them to suffer soul anguish, is the same fire that burns up the rubble and rubbish of earth. Do you think this is the same fire she spoke about in the DA quote above? If not, why not?

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of [1] fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of [2] fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, [3] fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. [4] Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on[5] fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of [6] fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the [7] fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming [8] fire , He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The [9] fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1} End Quote.

Of course, she says basically the same thing in the following DA quote. She even uses the same quote from Ezekiel 28. The fire that God rains down on the wicked in the midst of their fits of rage, and causes them to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness, is the same fire that burns up the rubble and rubbish of earth. And yet you seem to think this source of is symbolic. How do you reconcile this idea with what it sys here in these DA and GC quotes?

"Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of [10] fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming [11] fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

M:Since the objective is punishment it doesn't matter if God 1) permits it to happen or 2) causes it to happen - the outcome is the same.

For example, if the sinners who deserve punishment fall into a pit alive and are crushed to death when it closes up it doesn't matter if God withdrew His protection and allowed it to happen or if He employed the forces of nature as instruments of punishment. Either way God's will and purpose is served.

T: If it doesn't matter, why do you argue so strenuously that God causes it to happen?

M: By the way, what do you think was the source of fire that killed the 250 priests? "And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." "Fire flashing from the cloud consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense."

T: I'm asking what makes you think God would be capable of such a thing.

M: You asked, "How is it that you think God would be capable of burning people alive?" What is about God's character that compelled Him to permit or employ fire to burn up sinners alive? In a word - Justice.

T: You say "justice." Even human justice would not allow a person to be punished by being burned alive. This would be "cruel and unusual punishment," which is against the law. So I repeat my question, how is it that you think God would be capable of such behavior?

T:I'm asking what is it about God's character that does not allow Him to forgive sinners (or penitent sinners, if you prefer) freely? Again, since the law is a transcript of God's character, it should be possible for you to answer this without reference to the law. In fact, this is the reason I'm asking the question in reference to God's character, so that you will answer the question without reference to the law. Perhaps you can't do this(?)

M:My answer to your question hasn’t changed since I first answered it. The answer is – Justice.

Regarding Lucifer, there is nothing in inspiration anywhere that says anything about anyone dying in order for Lucifer to be forgiven. If Lucifer had repented, confessing his sin, he would have been forgiven and restored to his position. This is what inspiration tells us.

M:On this we disagree.

T:What's an example of something God does which makes no sense to you?

M:That He feels it is necessary to resurrect unsaved sinners. Why not leave them dead and gone?

T:You're the first person I've met who believes the 10 commandments are fulfilled by dogs.

M:They instinctively fulfill the spirit of the law, namely, love to man and love to God.

M; The same thing expressed in the positive would read, “This is an act of power on the part of God.” It is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. There is definitely nothing arbitrary about it. He never wields His power arbitrarily.

T: I disagree.

M:On this we disagree.

M:The same thing expressed in the positive would read, “This is an act of power on the part of God.” It is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. There is definitely nothing arbitrary about it. He never wields His power arbitrarily.

T:She doesn't say anything at all about *how* God wields His power. She says 10 times in a row that the death of the wicked is not due to God's exercising His power, but due to the choice that the wicked are making.

M:Here, I’ll let Jude say it, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Ellen concurs, “The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel.”

T: I disagree.

M:On this we disagree.

M:Here, I’ll let Jude say it, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Ellen concurs, “The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel.”

T:Are you saying that Jude and Ellen White are contradicting what she said in DA 764? I don't see how your response here addresses my point, which regards DA 764 saying that if God "left" Satan to reap what he had done then he would perish. I believe God executes justice by leaving Satan and his host to reap what they have sown, which is death, the inevitable result of sin. That harmonizes everything.

T:Since Lucifer was already able to repent and accept this freely offered pardon, Christ's substitutionary death was not necessary for Lucifer, nor would it have availed anything.

M:Thank you for clarifying this point. I hear you saying Lucifer possessed within himself the power and means necessary to repent and resume obeying God.

On this basis God would have pardoned his past sins and restated him. In effect he would have atoned for his sins, that is, made himself at-one with God.

God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. (GC 495, 496)

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

The point I was making above is the outcome is the same. Either way God's will and purpose is served.

M: By the way, what do you think was the source of fire that killed the 250 priests? "And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." "Fire flashing from the cloud consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense."

T: I'm asking what makes you think God would be capable of such a thing.

M:Justice. God is constrained to cause and/or permit suffering because of the Great Controversy.

M:You asked, "How is it that you think God would be capable of burning people alive?" What is about God's character that compelled Him to permit or employ fire to burn up sinners alive? In a word - Justice.

T:I don't see how this doesn't answer my question, MM. I'm asking what makes you think God would be capable of such a thing.

M:My answer to your question hasn’t changed since I first answered it. The answer is – Justice.

T: So because God is just, He cannot forgive sinners freely.

T:Since Lucifer was already able to repent and accept this freely offered pardon, Christ's substitutionary death was not necessary for Lucifer, nor would it have availed anything.

M:Thank you for clarifying this point. I hear you saying Lucifer possessed within himself the power and means necessary to repent and resume obeying God.

T: No, that's not what I'm saying.

M: On this basis God would have pardoned his past sins and restated him. In effect he would have atoned for his sins, that is, made himself at-one with God.

T: No, not at all! Had Lucifer repented, it would have been to God's credit, not Lucifer's!

T: Regarding the GC and DA quotes, what I understand is that in GC she is mostly relaying what she saw in vision, whereas in the DA quote she is more explaining the meaning of what she saw.

T: I apologize for not doing what you asked, especially as I know it took you time to prepare that. I started to try, but it was too difficult. I can explain what I think will happen, however.

[1] I believe Satan inspires the wicked to march against the Holy City, and that God stops their march by revealing His character. This He does through the panoramic view described in "The Great Controversy," where it talks about how Jesus Christ is presented, His lowly birth, His early life of simplicity and obedience; His baptism in Jordan; the fast and temptation in the wilderness; His public ministry, etc.

As Christ is presented, the wicked become aware of their own guilt, which they cannot bear. [2] I believe this representation of God's character is the light of the glory of God EGW describes in DA 108, and describes how the glory of God will destroy the wicked in DA 764, and other places. It also explains GC 543, which says the exclusion of the wicked from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and how they would long to flee from heaven, and how they hate God and those who follow Him. She writes:


I believe these the two sentences are speaking of the same thing, and the same thing as DA 108 which says that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

[3] Now a word as to why the suffering is proportional to their sin. My impression from what you've said is you believe that God has some sort of measure of how bad a person has been, and burns that person alive for so much time according to what his sins add up to. So a really bad person, like Hitler, would have to be burned alive by literal fire for a long time, but a less bad person, say a teenager not long past the age of accountability, would just be burned a alive by literal fire for a little bit.

What I believe is that the revelation of Christ enlightens the conscience and makes clear the wickeds' sin, which they cannot bear. None of us can bear our guilt. Those who accept Christ are brought to terms with their guilt little by little, where God can forgive the believer as He repents. In this way the believer is healed by the revelation of the truth, because he receives the truth about God, revealed as grace/mercy in addition to justice/holiness/righteousness. The wicked, in the judgment, do not perceive the Lord's mercy or grace, and so are overwhelmed by His justice/holiness/righteousness.

The reason the wicked suffer in proportion to their sin is that the more sin they have, the more suffering as that sin is made known.

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men --"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

M: The point I was making above is the outcome is the same. Either way God's will and purpose is served.

T: But outcome isn't sufficient to determine the righteousness of an activity. If it were, one could steal, arguing that this is fine, since the outcome is the same as if one had worked and earned what he stole. The end does not justify the means.

T: So, again I ask, what makes you think God is capable of cruelty to such a degree. I mean, you wouldn't be able to bear the shouts of pain of even your worst enemy for many hours or days, would you? What makes you think God would be able to do something crueler than you could? (I'm assuming you wouldn't be able to burn someone alive, hearing them scream in pain, for many hours or days, assuming you had the power to stop their suffering, and assuming it was possible for them to be burning without dying).

By the way, what do you think was the source of fire that killed the 250 priests? Listen:

"And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." "Fire flashing from the cloud consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense."

M:My answer to your question hasn’t changed since I first answered it. The answer is – Justice.

T: So because God is just, He cannot forgive sinners freely.

M:You left out a key word.

T:Since Lucifer was already able to repent and accept this freely offered pardon, Christ's substitutionary death was not necessary for Lucifer, nor would it have availed anything.

M:Thank you for clarifying this point. I hear you saying Lucifer possessed within himself the power and means necessary to repent and resume obeying God.

T: No, that's not what I'm saying.

M: On this basis God would have pardoned his past sins and restated him. In effect he would have atoned for his sins, that is, made himself at-one with God.

T: No, not at all! Had Lucifer repented, it would have been to God's credit, not Lucifer's!

M:So, I hear you saying Lucifer did not have the power and wherewithal within himself to repent and resume obeying God. Why didn’t he? Where would he have gotten it? How was his situation in this regard different than A&E? Did they also lack the power and means to repent and resume obeying God?

M: The point I was making above is the outcome is the same. Either way God's will and purpose is served.

T: But outcome isn't sufficient to determine the righteousness of an activity. If it were, one could steal, arguing that this is fine, since the outcome is the same as if one had worked and earned what he stole. The end does not justify the means.

M:In your analogy which person, the thief or the honest laborer, symbolizes God employing the “withdraw and permit” method of causing death and destruction? Which one symbolizes the “will and purpose” of God?

My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods" (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

M: My answer to your question hasn’t changed since I first answered it. The answer is – Justice.

T: So because God is just, He cannot forgive sinners freely.

M: You left out a key word.

T: I assume you're referring to "penitent." Would you agree with the following: Because God is just, He cannot forgive penitent sinners freely. Actually, this word isn't necessary, for the reason that because God is just, He cannot forgive impenitent sinners as well.

M: So, I hear you saying Lucifer did not have the power and wherewithal within himself to repent and resume obeying God. Why didn’t he? Where would he have gotten it? How was his situation in this regard different than A&E? Did they also lack the power and means to repent and resume obeying God?

T: No, I didn't say this either. I don't understand why you're having difficulty here. You keep changing what I write into something else. I'm saying what I'm saying.

God did all He could to influence Lucifer to repent, and had Lucifer repented, that would have been to God's credit. I wrote this to correct the idea you expressed, that "In effect he would have atoned for his sins, that is, made himself at-one with God."

Regarding Lucifer's capacity to repent, Lucifer was able to repent. He chose not to, although God worked patiently with him to do so, over a long time, offering him pardon again and again. Regarding how Lucifer's situation was different than Adam and Eve's, this is spelled out in the DA 761, 762

M: In the presence of the God’s radiant glory and brightness they confront their sin in all its power and horror. They confess they are worthy of death. But instead of succumbing to death they turn upon one another in fits of rage. It is at this point, after they have already been exposed to the glory of God, after they have already confronted their sin, after they have already begun turning upon one another in fits of rage, it is after all this that God finally employs literal fire.

T: So I disagree with your comments regarding literal fire for these two reasons. One, they don't agree with what's written elsewhere in inspiration regarding the fire itself, and two, they don't agree with what inspiration reveals regarding God's character.

1. This is literal fire. Do you agree? “Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.”

2. This is literal fire. Do you agree? “The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men . . .”

3. This is literal fire. Do you agree? “While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City.” “The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth.”

4. In the midst of these devouring flames, while the very rocks on fire, while the surface of the earth is one molten mass, a vast seething lake of fire, Ellen sees the wicked and observes, “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished ‘according to their deeds.’” Do you agree?

5. The righteous are safely hidden within the walls of New Jerusalem from the cleansing fire and flames. “While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction” the wicked are suffering according to their sinfulness. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days.” Do you agree?

6. She plainly says the “judgment and perdition of ungodly men” happens while the earth is wrapped in fire. The planet is one molten mass, a vast seething lake of fire. Where do you think they are standing during this time? How do they avoid being burned? Does God work a miracle to prevent them from being burned?

T: But outcome isn't sufficient to determine the righteousness of an activity. If it were, one could steal, arguing that this is fine, since the outcome is the same as if one had worked and earned what he stole. The end does not justify the means.

M: In your analogy which person, the thief or the honest laborer, symbolizes God employing the “withdraw and permit” method of causing death and destruction? Which one symbolizes the “will and purpose” of God?

T: The point of the illustration was that an outcome isn't sufficient to determine the righteousness of an activity. The end does not justify the means. You've been arguing that it doesn't matter if God does something (example: kill Job's children Himself -- my example of your concept, not something you've affirmed) or permits it to happen (example: permits Satan to kill Job's children -- my example of your concept, not something you've affirmed) because the outcome is the same. But what one does is important; it does matter. No only the outcome matters. The end does not justify the means.

T: Regarding my question as to why you think God would be capable of the cruelty you attribute to Him, you haven't answered this question. Perhaps you yourself don't know the answer to this. You've said things like God does these things because of justice, but this isn't addressing my question, which is why you think God is capable of doing the things you ascribe to Him.

T: Regarding the question of the fire coming from God out of a cloud, I don't believe God killed the people with fire by direct action. I believe this is out of harmony with His character, His law, what Jesus Christ has revealed about God, and a number of statements which I've quoted many times, so I won't repeat them here.

I agree the people were alive before they were killed. Regarding the specifics of this particular fire, I don't know, I haven't studied this. However, I believe the principles outlined previously, the same principles discussed in GC chapter 1, would apply to this case. The particulars of one case to another may differ, but the general principles remain the same. People do things to cause God to withdraw, and catastrophe comes as a result. Here's an example of the principle from Scripture:


Notice that God's anger is expressed by forsaking, by hiding His face, and that the result is that many evils and troubles shall befall them. Notice that the people caused God to depart from them by choosing other gods.

“God will use His enemies as instruments [by withdrawing and permitting them] to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.”

“The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world [by withdrawing and permitting them to run their natural course]. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used [by withdrawing and permitting] both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities.”

“God controls all these elements; they are his instruments [when He withdraws and permits them] to do his will; he calls them into action [by withdrawing and permitting them] to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram they go down alive into the pit.”

M: My answer to your question hasn’t changed since I first answered it. The answer is – Justice.

T: So because God is just, He cannot forgive sinners freely.

M: You left out a key word.

T: I assume you're referring to "penitent." Would you agree with the following: Because God is just, He cannot forgive penitent sinners freely. Actually, this word isn't necessary, for the reason that because God is just, He cannot forgive impenitent sinners as well.

M:The key word is “impenitent”.

So, I hear you saying, yes, Lucifer’s salvation hinged on him responding to the wooing of God and exercising the power he possessed within himself to repent and resume obeying God. Had he done so God would have been credited with saving him.

And, I hear you saying, yes, A&E’s case is different in that they did not possess the power within themselves to repent and resume obeying God. The revelation of God’s love on the cross motivates humans to embrace Jesus and to partake of the divine nature which is what empowers them to use their faculties of mind and body to repent and begin obeying God. When they do so God is credited with saving them.

T: The point of the illustration was that an outcome isn't sufficient to determine the righteousness of an activity. The end does not justify the means. You've been arguing that it doesn't matter if God does something (example: kill Job's children Himself -- my example of your concept, not something you've affirmed) or permits it to happen (example: permits Satan to kill Job's children -- my example of your concept, not something you've affirmed) because the outcome is the same. But what one does is important; it does matter. No only the outcome matters. The end does not justify the means.

M:So, I hear you saying, the difference between God causing death and destruction directly versus God causing it indirectly is night and day, and even if the outcome is the same it is largely irrelevant.

It would be cruel, violent, and illogical if God were to cause death and destruction Himself, but it is kind, loving, and logical when He withdraws.

I do not perceive it as cruel or unusual punishment. Just because you characterize it that way doesn’t mean it is so. It is simply your opinion. That sinners were burned and buried alive is too clear to be misunderstood. You might find it comforting to believe such things happened because God did not prevent His enemies or the forces of nature from doing them, but I find it more comforting to believe God carefully managed the outcome.

T: Didn't you say "penitent" before? God can't pardon impenitent sinners in any way, free or not-free. I'm not asking about them.

M: So, I hear you saying, yes, Lucifer’s salvation hinged on him responding to the wooing of God and exercising the power he possessed within himself to repent and resume obeying God. Had he done so God would have been credited with saving him.

T: This seems like an artificial, stilted, forced and confusing way of putting this. The following is much simpler and easy to understand. God did all He could to effect a reconciliation with Lucifer, but Lucifer was unwilling to change his course of action, even after being completely convinced he was in the wrong.

T: So I disagree with your comments regarding literal fire for these two reasons. One, they don't agree with what's written elsewhere in inspiration regarding the fire itself, and two, they don't agree with what inspiration reveals regarding God's character.

I'm burned out on the fire question, and have nothing more to add at this point. Perhaps we can revisit it in the future. It seems to me my last explanation was quite complete.

T: My question has nothing to do with how I perceive or characterize anything. I'm asking why *you* think God is capable of what *you* think He will do, which is to burn people alive with literal fire for many hours or many days. How is it that you don't perceive burning people alive for hours or days cruel?