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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#106975
01/02/09 05:48 AM
01/02/09 05:48 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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this gives me a very high goal to want to copy. the other view just gives me a picture of another Person struggling with temptation-self-centered. I don't know what "this" and "that" are here. A person can struggle with temptation without being self-centered. For example, consider the case of Jesus. His mission was the revelation of God. Temptation powerfully influenced Him to do wrong actions, which would have been pleasant for Him to do, but Christ "pleased not Himself," but instead kept His mission in view, and, being other-centered, said "no!" and was faith to His mission, revealing God as being other-centered. Jesus was other-centered. His hours spent in prayer and communing with the Father were not about overcoming temptation, but for strength, power and wisdom to show us the Father, and His holiness, to continually give to others.
"post-laps" have never given me that picture. the bible and egw do. Egw was a post-lap. So were the Bible writers. I know many other post-laps that present this picture as well. George Fifield is one who presented this idea strongly. A. T. Jones also presented it. In modern times, Ty Gibson is one who presents this emphasis. On the other hand, I also know post-laps (nice term) who only emphasize something like Jesus was like us, and overcame, so we must overcome as He did and think that's what the Gospel is. I think many throw out the baby with the bathwater because of this sort of single-minded emphasis. When A. T. Jones began his 1896 presentations on the human nature of Christ, he started out by explaining that Christ took our nature so that He could reveal the Father. That's what needs to be at the forefront.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#106980
01/02/09 01:44 PM
01/02/09 01:44 PM
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,219
Florida, USA
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Well, substitute the chocolate for sleezy women...it doesn't matter what the temptation was, Jesus responded the same way every time. You find no record of Him struggling with sexual sin, ever. When he saw a provocative women, His first and only reaction was to help her recover from her sin...lust didn't have any hold on Him whatsoever. After all, she was a child of His. It is true, Satan was there parading sleezy women in front of Him many times, trying to find something in Him to arouse....but he always failed. Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foot-hold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of himself, “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.” [John 14:30.] Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept his Father's commandments, and there was no sin in him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. {GC88 622.4} If, when Satan comes to us, he is still able to find something somewhere in us, it doesn't matter where, ...if he can find ANYTHING in us that responds to his temptations...then....we are not safe to save. That is why we are still here! Jesus could have come a long time ago, He is only waiting for a people who reflect His character...but unfortunately, many are copying a wrong pattern...and they don't realize it...and they haven't made the connection in their minds yet, that this is the very reason that the Lord has not come back. When people talk about "the flesh" and how our flesh will always desire sin....that is just an excuse to sin. What is your flesh? Your arms, your legs, your body, right? Your arms, legs and your body, they don't desire sin....they only do the bidding of your mind & your heart...it all has to do with the mind, not "the flesh"....that is why Jesus said, "Let this mind be in you..." and "I will give you a new heart..." Sure, our bodies get physically hungery, and tired....but that doesn't make us desire sin. Jesus got physically hungry and tired, too.... Clearly we are told He took the nature of Adam after the Fall. Well...must run! Happy New Year to you all! Well I dont know about just 'sleezy women' causing sin, I think its more people seeking the pleasures of sin and let it lock in and affect their minds and hearts away from God... 2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: teresaq]
#107022
01/03/09 11:33 AM
01/03/09 11:33 AM
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the basic problem is making the assumption that those of us opposed to the wording and thought of this topic have anything to do with this "fordian gospel". once that thought is destroyed, what is actually written might be "heard".
That is an excellent point, Theresa. I couldn't be further, myself, from Fordism.... And yet, so many automatically think that is what I am, because I believe that Jesus had no desire to sin. For, clearly we are told that He hated sin with a "perfect hatred". Amid impurity, Christ maintained His purity. Satan could not stain or corrupt it. His character revealed a perfect hatred for sin. ...(ST May 10, 1899). {5BC 1142.8} And, we too, can and must come to the point where we hate sin with a perfect hatred - O, if every one could see this matter as it is presented before me in all its bearings, how soon would they quit with the enemy in his artful work! How they would despise his measures to bring sin upon the human family! How they would hate sin with a perfect hatred, as they consider the fact that it cost the life of heaven's Commander, in order that they should not perish, that man should not be bound a hopeless captive to Satan's chariot, a degraded slave to his will, a trophy of his victory and his kingdom. {FE 291.2} It is impossible to hate sin with a perfect hatred and at the same time have an inner desire for sin.... Surely everyone has overcome some sin in their lifetime...perhaps it is smoking as an example. I've heard many say who used to smoke, now that they have quit, that they hate it, it is repulsive. That is how all sin must become to us, replusive. Sin was repulsive to Jesus....and so it will be to His people also.
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rick H]
#107023
01/03/09 11:50 AM
01/03/09 11:50 AM
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Well I dont know about just 'sleezy women' causing sin, I think its more people seeking the pleasures of sin and let it lock in and affect their minds and hearts away from God...
2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. That is a big part, too, Richard, for sure. Temptation is enticement to sin, and this does not proceed from God, but from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. {MB 116.2} Clearly, there are TWO places from which temptation comes: #1 - From the OUTSIDE - Satan #2 - From the INSIDE - The evil of our own hearts. OK, Jesus was tempted from the outside constantly....Satan was constantly bombarding him with temptation. But, because Jesus' own heart was right with God, Satan never found a foothold for any of his temptations. We on the other hand, are not always surrendered to God, and when we are not and Satan comes to tempt us, he finds within us an answering chord for his temptations....that NEVER happened to Jesus. We were born different than Jesus. Jesus never needed to be reborn. We ALL need to be reborn. Jesus came into this world with a converted heart...we come into this world with a heart separated from God. But that is the beauty of the Gospel! Jesus reaches us where we are, and offers to us, the same advantage He had, that of a new heart, and the strength and desire to live a Christian life.
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#107030
01/03/09 06:10 PM
01/03/09 06:10 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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That is an excellent point, Theresa. I couldn't be further, myself, from Fordism.... And yet, so many automatically think that is what I am, because I believe that Jesus had no desire to sin. For, clearly we are told that He hated sin with a "perfect hatred". That Christ had no desire for sin has nothing to do with Fordism. No one would think this is "what you are" because of this. Surely everyone has overcome some sin in their lifetime...perhaps it is smoking as an example. I've heard many say who used to smoke, now that they have quit, that they hate it, it is repulsive. That is how all sin must become to us, replusive. There are also those who gave up cigarettes, and many years later smell it, and it calls back a former desire, which they chose not to respond to. This is not sin. Temptation occurs when one is "powerfully influenced" to do a wrong thing. Not when one is presented something which is repulsive. In this case one would be powerfully influenced NOT to do the wrong thing. It is true that being tempted from inside *could* be the result of one's evil heart, because of our having sinned, but not all temptation from within is due to an evil heart. Much of the temptations we experience from within are due to our having inherited a fallen nature. Christ took upon His own sinless nature our fallen nature. He accepted the workings of the great law of heredity in order to "share our temptations." He could only "share" them if He experienced them.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#107033
01/03/09 07:15 PM
01/03/09 07:15 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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the basic problem is making the assumption that those of us opposed to the wording and thought of this topic have anything to do with this "fordian gospel". once that thought is destroyed, what is actually written might be "heard".
That is an excellent point, Theresa. I couldn't be further, myself, from Fordism.... And yet, so many automatically think that is what I am, because I believe that Jesus had no desire to sin. For, clearly we are told that He hated sin with a "perfect hatred". Amid impurity, Christ maintained His purity. Satan could not stain or corrupt it. His character revealed a perfect hatred for sin. ...(ST May 10, 1899). {5BC 1142.8} And, we too, can and must come to the point where we hate sin with a perfect hatred - O, if every one could see this matter as it is presented before me in all its bearings, how soon would they quit with the enemy in his artful work! How they would despise his measures to bring sin upon the human family! How they would hate sin with a perfect hatred, as they consider the fact that it cost the life of heaven's Commander, in order that they should not perish, that man should not be bound a hopeless captive to Satan's chariot, a degraded slave to his will, a trophy of his victory and his kingdom. {FE 291.2} It is impossible to hate sin with a perfect hatred and at the same time have an inner desire for sin.... Surely everyone has overcome some sin in their lifetime...perhaps it is smoking as an example. I've heard many say who used to smoke, now that they have quit, that they hate it, it is repulsive. That is how all sin must become to us, replusive. Sin was repulsive to Jesus....and so it will be to His people also. that is pretty much my understanding. thank you for stating it so well.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#107037
01/03/09 07:31 PM
01/03/09 07:31 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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Much of the temptations we experience from within are due to our having inherited a fallen nature. Christ took upon His own sinless nature our fallen nature. He accepted the workings of the great law of heredity in order to "share our temptations." He could only "share" them if He experienced them. i have always understood Christs "fallen" human nature, from ellen white, in the sense that Christ felt hunger, fatigue, etc.. things adam never felt in his pre-fall state.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: teresaq]
#107044
01/03/09 10:56 PM
01/03/09 10:56 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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It is healthy for people to feel hungry between meals. Feeling hungry isn't unique to fallen nature.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#107045
01/03/09 11:13 PM
01/03/09 11:13 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Well, substitute the chocolate for sleezy women...it doesn't matter what the temptation was, Jesus responded the same way every time. You find no record of Him struggling with sexual sin, ever. When he saw a provocative women, His first and only reaction was to help her recover from her sin...lust didn't have any hold on Him whatsoever. After all, she was a child of His. In what way was Jesus tempted when He saw a sleazy woman? When a holy angel sees a sleazy woman, does he feel tempted? When someone who is abiding in Jesus sees a sleazy woman, is he tempted? What makes the difference, if any, in how and why these three different people experience temptation?
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