Hi,

First of all I keep wondering why noone has quoted john 3:16-18

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Jesus came to the world for ALL humans, despite the fact that most would not respond to this in a positive way.

Secoundly, I read this which seems to be saying that the writings of Ellen somehow replaces the need of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, john 16: 12-14

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

If this is what it was meant to mean, it is sad indeed. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Originally posted by liane:
Hi Brother Daryl and Tom:

There is no statement of this verse from the Spirit of Prophecy. So one must look to the Holy Spirit and the wisdom given to us.

Liane

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/Thomas

edit, I saw that john 3:16 had in fact been refered to when reading the secound last page, however, the conclutions still seem to be different...

Jn:14:21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he
that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Hosea 14:4.
1: O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2: Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
3: Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
4: I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

Notice it says God will then love them freely. Maybe a difference between loving and loving freely?

Jn:13:23: Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

The Desire of Ages, page 292, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: "He Ordained Twelve"
"These disciples had been for some time associated with Jesus in active labor. John and James, Andrew and Peter, with Philip, Nathanael, and Matthew, had been more closely connected with Him than the others, and had witnessed more of His miracles. Peter, James, and John stood in still nearer relationship to Him. They were almost constantly with Him, witnessing His miracles, and hearing His words. John pressed into still closer intimacy with Jesus, so that he is distinguished as the one whom Jesus loved. The Saviour loved them all, but John's was the most receptive spirit. He was younger than the others, and with more of the child's confiding trust he opened his heart to Jesus. Thus he came more into sympathy with Christ, and through him the Saviour's deepest spiritual teaching was communicated to His people."

side note:
The Spirit of Prophecy doesnt keep the Holy Spirit from guiding us into all truth anymore than reading the Bible instead of relying upon impressions does. Depends on how you use it.

ABOVE QUOTE:
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It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him. (DA 480) =======================================

Amen!!! It is the Attitude we obey in and the reason we obey that makes the difference. All said and done, it is the relationship we have with Him, the love "because He first loved us!"

"How could I give you up, O Ephraim, or deliver you up, O Israel? How could I treat you as Admah, or make you like Zeboiim? My heart is overwhelmed, my pity is stirred." (Hos. 11:8; kjv)

"My heart is changed within me;
all my compassion is aroused." (NIV)

"My heart will not let me do it! My love for you is too strong. (GNB)"

If we persist in rebellion, God has no choice but to eventually "give us up", but it deeply hurts Him to do so, because He so greatly loves us. He didn't start loving us because we were obedient to Him, nor does He stop if we reject Him, just as Hosea didn't stop loving his wife when she rejected him.

Here's a statement from the Spirit of Prophesy which incorporates John 14:21:

If we can bear persecution for His dear name's sake, His love becomes a ruling power in our hearts, for we have the assurance that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. Never is the tempest-tried soul more dearly loved by his Saviour than when he is suffering reproach for the truth's sake. When for the truth's sake the believer stands at the bar of unrighteous tribunals, Christ stands by his side. All the reproaches that fall upon the human believer fall upon Christ in the person of His saints. "I will love him," said Christ, "and will manifest myself to him" (John 14:21). (That I May Know Him, p. 275)

The point is that if follow Christ, then we can expect to be persecuted as He was. In our persecution, Christ continues to love us and manifest Himself to us. The point isn't that Christ will only love us on condition of obedience, but that we can count on His love come what may.

Sorry for the long delay in response. This had been a full week for me, more than I had expected.

There is no question of the love of God. The Bible quotes that "God is Love." We know this because of what He did on the cross for us. His love is a major part of the image that God is and we need to understand and learn from.

At the same time we have verses that speak of His hate. There are more than I had seen before. We must not just look at one side of His relationslhip with humanity, but all aspects of it so that we get a very good picture of Who God really is.

Failure to do so will lead many to have a tunnel vision of God that will cause many to stumble when the great time of trouble comes. Because they will have failed to know Him they will miss the mark and not hear His knock at the door.

We see this very clearly when we look at how the Apostles of Christ reacted from the time in the Garden to the moment of His death on the Cross. Yes because there were parts to Jesus and His message of His death they did not want to hear or did not understand they ran like scared rabbits and hid in their den.

We can talk about the love of God toward the saved and the wicked, but we must also understand his hatred toward those wicked when the judgment is set and the books are open. We will see when Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place the wrath of God and His "strange act."

And before Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place the world will be visited with six of the plagues that God will pur out unpon the wicked. So let us with all purpose and faith do all that we can to reach out to the world of the love of God which was so demostrated on that cross because of all of our sins so that many will be saved.

Liane

Liane, you wrote

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. . .Love is a force that God has given us, hate is an emotion that we feel. . . .

. . .The word love does not need anything before or after it to describe it. LOVE IS

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Those distinctions that you make are important I think. Hate is not the opposite of love just as evil is not the opposite of good and Satan is not the opposite of God.

'Love is' , 'God is' and 'good is' but the followers of God hate evil because they love good. True, wholesome hatred is rooted in the love of that which is good; in the love of God. The destation of sin in ourselves and in others is an important part of godliness and is rooted in love.

Liane, you also wrote

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God's love is a covenant and like so many covenants by God there is a role that the person must do and God does. . .

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I agree with you here too. Many espousing 'unconditional love' are unwittingly adopting a 'sin and live' theology. Our obedience is the result of our submission to Christ and His righteousness. If the love of Christ only covered our sins but did not constrain us to respond in love there would truly be 'no strings' attached. But there would also be no real love. Our hearts are drawn to Christ and resonate with His pulse of love as we see Him hanging on the cross where we should be. The same love constrains us to resist sin by faith. The bottom line for me is that since He loved us so dynamically and completely, how can we not respond?

To say that He loved us while we were still His enemies makes it all the more poignant to us. In that sence His love is unconditional. He showers His blessings on us even while we are estranged from Him. But it is love with a purpose - His is entreating us to respond and live. We can go on turning our backs on Him, but rejecting the grace of God brings consequences. Over time our hearts are hardened, and finally become an impenitrable stone to the Holy Spirit.

So rejection of this unconditional love brings consequences. If that is so, then in an important aspect, the love of God is not unconditional; it is as you point out Liane, a covenant relationship based on God's agape love and our response of love to Him.

In scientific allegory, God's love is the first note in the cosmic song, but our hearts resonate at the same frequency.

God doesn't hate the wicked. He "hates the sin, but loves the sinner." God loves the wicked, but hates the sin which causes their destruction, which He, out of love, warns them from.

If we had a child, or spouse, who chose not to be a part of those who will make themselves ready for Christ's coming, would we hate them? Or would we grieve for them? Is God's love for them less than ours?

God will cry out, "How can I give you up?" "My heart is stirred with compassion." God will suffer more than the wicked themselves when they are destroyed.

That is how I also see it, Tom.

God loves the sinner but hates the sin he or she is committing.

I did a word search to see how many verses I can find that says that "God is love" and here they are:

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1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

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As you can see there are only two verses in the whole KJV of the Bible.

I next did a word search on "God is hate" and I am happy to say that I obviously didn't find any verses that says that, and I didn't expect to find any.

I decided to do a word search to see what the Bible says that God hates and came up with the following verse:

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Deuteronomy 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 16:22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

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I stopped here when I came across Psalms 11:5 as this verse seems to say that God hates the wicked and him that loves violence.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this particular verse?

If God hates the wicked then why does He shower his love on him with rain and warmth Etc... as He does the righteous?

If God hates the wicked then why are we told that God laments when He has to distroy them? This shows us that He loves them all the way to the time of distruction.'

One question. I notice that the Bible says that God hates the wicked. It does not use the words that He hates the sinner. At first thought we say that they are both the same. Is it possible that they are not the same?

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I did a word search for God hate sinner, and came up with nothing.
but God love sinner, I came up with the above.

It makes one wonder if there is a difference between wicked and sinner as far as God's love/hate goes.

Any thoughts?