Daryl & Marie:

Between you two I think there is some light that just might be merging for us to understand.

Let us read two verses:

Matthew 13:38

The field of the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Psalms 11:5

The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loves violence His soul hateth.

What is a Sinner:

A person who willfully breaks a religous or moral law.

What are the Wicked:

Someone who is morally bad, evil.

What are the tares?

They are the children of the wicked one.

The Bible says sin is the transgression of the law. It also says that the wages of sin is death.

It does not say that a sinner shall receive death, but that sin does require death.

So is there a point when a person goes from being a sinner to being wicked?

Who is the wicked one? That being is satan.
Who are the tares? They are the children of the wicked one.

There is not a single verse in the Bible that says God hates sinners, but there is this one verse that says God hates the wicked.

As the world comes to the close I believe that we will begin to see this more clear as time goes by. It appears that we will see people go from being sinners with hope to those that will be wicked that have passed all hope and we will see with our own eyes the evil that is within them.

I believe we do see that now, but the difference will become so contrast that we also will know those that have cut themselves off from God and those to where there still will be some hope.

There are many verses in the Old and New Testament that describe satan, the devil as the wicked one. To the wicked one and those that have become wicked are all as one, but the sinner there still is a light that could be burning if but we fail to reach them that will walk in the way of darkness.

Liane

Thank You Liane,

This is just how I see it. Another way of putting it is that man does not become so wicked that God hates him as well as his sin, till he commits the unpardnable sin and no long has any hope....due to his own choice of turning away the holy Spirit till there is no turning back.

With for our Lord as we seek him to find the truth.

Marie

Just asking for clarity, what bibleverses back the definitions of sinner and wicked as given above?

/Thomas

Texts have been given. It is also thought of because of what is not in the Bible. Such as the fact that the Bible does never say that God hates sinners, but rather it does say that He hates the Wicked.

Only verses i saw are those which say that the wicked love violence...

/Thomas

Hi Vost:

Sorry it took me awhile to reply. My main computer is down with all my software and my backup can only be used to do e-mail and post on forums, that is all I have room for in it.

Sinner: To miss, lead estray, trespass, sinful person. Ecc. 7:26 and Luke 15:7 are examples with the concordance gives 2398 and 268 as reference.

Wicked: morally wrong, ungodly, evil, degeneracy, vicious, malicous, without law. Ps 11:5 and Matt 13:49 are examples with the concordance gives 7563 and 4190 as reference.

There is a big difference between a sinner who is missing the mark and is being led estray to one who is wicked, does evil and is without law.

The Bible says: Yet while we were sinners Jesus died for us. For all have sinned and fall short to the glory of God. There is now for many those that have crossed the line from just being a sinner to one who has altogether rejected the salvation give to us.

At some point in time when Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place there will only be left the righteous and the wicked, the just and the unjust.

Liane

The word "hate", both in the Hebrew and Greek, can have the meaning of "the one (or thing) not preferred." For example, Jesus tells us we're not worth of following Him unless we hate our parents and siblings.

Nothing is clearer in Scripture that God loves His children, regardless of their behavior. Even we, wicked as we are, love our children regardless of their behavior. Is God less loving than we are? Or to be more like God, do we need to learn to hate our children if they are bad?

Your post, Tom Ewall, reminded me of the following Bible text, which I believe you were referring to.

quote:

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Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

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Is Christ actually telling us that we must hate our father, mother, wife, children, brethren, and even our own selves in order to be His disciple in the above text?

Hate is a very strong word in today's language.

Was it a strong word back then too?

I think Tom Ewall may have answered these questions in his post.

My questions are:

1. Would loving good parents who follow Jesus and teach their children to love Jesus would need to be hated?

2. Would selfish parents who do not follow Jesus and do not teach their children to love Jesus would need to be hated?

Liane

How about answering a question with a question.

If you were a parent, which I never was and never will be, would you ever actually hate and disown your procreated child no matter what your child did to you?