I'm thankful Tom said he didn't misstate, MM, because I believe that is how all people really think, down deep in their heart, who hold this belief. Many cringe to put it in so many words, as Tom has done, because when you do that, and you read it back, it really sounds bad...that is why you tried to tell him to reword it...but nonetheless, that is exactly how most people believe.

Tom says,

MM quote:

MM, this was NOT the experience of Jesus! This is NOT the experience of the victorious Christian. When Satan tempted Jesus, NOTHING in Jesus responded to the temptation....HE immediately repelled the temptation. This man "played" the temptation "out in his mind"...Jesus NEVER did that. This man lusted for this girl....that is sin.



Satan came to Jesus with all kinds of temptations...but He never was successful...the temptation came to Him, He saw it for what it was and it was immediately banished...He NEVER "played it out in his mind"....for that IS SIN.

How Tom expressed it, and like I said, I believe that is how most really believe who hold this ungodly doctrine, sounds bad, but that is what most believe.

Look at this again: Quote by Tom:

Talk to an alcoholic....when he is trying to quit....ever thought of his is about alcohol...he is under extreme temptation...and like Jones, you believe that Jesus was even stronger tempted (from the inside) "on all points" - so He was tempted on alcohol, even worse than the alcoholic???? He was tempted on mass murder more than Charles Manson???? He was tempted on genocide, more than Hitler????? Follow your reasoning out as far as it goes...this is exactly what you are saying. All of the worst sins one can imagine, were sins that Jesus found even more tempting than most of us, according to you...

This isn't what MM said. He said:




Regarding the following:



Apparently you disagree with this, but I'm not sure why. Let me try expressing things this way.

If a temptation has no strength, it is not tempting. If has some strength, it is somewhat tempting. If it has great strength, it is greatly tempting. If it has incomprehensible strength, it is incomprehensibly tempting. The strength of the temptations Christ had to endure was incomprehensible. Therefore His temptations were incomprehensibly tempting.

This all seems to follow logically from the assumption that to say that a temptation has strength is to say it is tempting. I can't think of what else it would mean to say that a temptation has strength.

OK. For real the last one before I go away....

The temptation for us and for Jesus to sin were very real and enticing. If a temptation is not enticing, it does not tempt.

And the various temptations, when you unwrap them, all boil down to the same basic thing: self-will vs. God's will. That's what tempts us and that's what tempted Jesus.

But here's a difference: Christ's temptations were at least 100 times stronger than any we will ever have to face. His temptation to follow self was stronger than ours is.

And here's another important difference: Our "self" is depraved because of transgression, while Christ's "self" was ever holy and undefiled. His temptations to fulfill His self-will were toward pure and holy things. For example, when Satan showed Him the kingdoms of the world, he showed good, wholesome scenes, not the scenes of sin that attract depraved men like us. So the way Satan attacked Him came from a different angle.

I don't think you all agree with this quote. Clearly, she says this was a temptation...and shows the response that Jesus had to this temptation. According to your definition of "temptation" - this was no temptation at all, because He didn't find it "tempting".

This clearly shows that something does not have to be "tempting" in order to be a temptation. And remember, this was one of the three great temptations...

Of this very temptation, EGW writes:



So it's clear the temptations in the wilderness, and this one in particular, were alluring to Christ.



I don't see how you can reconcile these statements with the idea that Christ's temptations were not tempting.

Also we are told that the strength of Christ's temptations are incomprehensible to man. What does "strength" of temptation mean if not that the temptation is tempting?

Thanks Arnold. A couple of thoughts.

First of all, if Christ's self was unlike ours, why did He have to deny it? Iow, if Christ's self was simply the divine self He had before coming to earth, wouldn't it have been in perfect harmony with the Father's will? In this case, there would have been nothing to deny. Yet Christ enjoined us to take up our cross, to deny our self, and follow Him.

Second, in regards to Christ's being tempted by wholesome things, as he was presenting the kingdoms of this world to Christ, just what could Satan have been showing Christ in regards to this sin-cursed earth which would have been "wholesome"?

Temptation and desire are seperate, just as being offered a 'date' by a prostitutes is a temptation for sexual sin, but if you have the mind of Christ the desire is not there as you have not bounced it around in your head to the point of creating a 'need' or desire for it. Too many people have developed a 'sweet tooth' for sin and then assume that Christ must have had also had this in his mind, but he never developed it, yet he had the weakened flesh just as we are born with.

i hate to respond because i hate to go round and round with no resolution, but the way i read it and understand it is that Christ emptied Himself of all His will in order to allow God to live through Him as an example for us.

thanks for the clarification! that helps a lot.

From Jones, in the same sermon where he said that Jesus did not have a sinful mind (emphases mine):
The example He left for us is to keep self under at all costs. When we keep self under, what do we avoid? Making a huge mess of things.

That's why the temptation was much harder for Jesus, because if He let His self run the show, everything would still have been fine, with the notable exception that He would mess up the plan of redemption.

Plus, He laid His omniscience aside. Therefore, He was relying on His Father to guide Him. His faith in God led Him to do His Father's will even if He had His own ideas.



Satan knew better than to try to tempt Jesus with Las Vegas. We naturally like evil, but Christ's nature recoiled from it.

But of course, Jesus saw through this anyway.