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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107441
01/11/09 05:52 AM
01/11/09 05:52 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, if temptations were repulsive to Christ, then He wasn't tempted. The following is clear about this:

Quote:
Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, page 1082)


Regarding the third temptation in the wilderness, EGW calls it the most "alluring" of the three.

Temptation does not involve doing something right, but something wrong. See the above ("influenced to do a wrong action.")

Christ had to deny Himself. He "pleased not Himself." This was difficult for Christ because He took our fallen nature and bore our sins.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107442
01/11/09 06:16 AM
01/11/09 06:16 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
BUT! That DOES NOT mean that Jesus found these temptations that Satan presented as alluring as he possible could, tempting or alluring. Clearly He did not, for she says ~


"As alluring as he possibly could"? What does this mean? Why would this be necessary?

Quote:
Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, page 1082)


This quote makes clear that Christ:

1.Temptation is not temptation without the possibility of yielding.
2.Temptation involves being powerfully influenced to do a wrong action.
3.This was an ordeal for Christ.

The idea that Christ's temptations consisted of being offered things which were repulsive to Him doesn't fit with any of these points. First of all, what possibility was there of Christ's yielding to some temptation which was repulsive to Him? Even we don't give into temptations like that. Yet His temptations were much more difficult to meet than ours.

Second, we are told that temptation involves being powerfully influenced to do a wrong action. This doesn't fit either. Repulsion would be a powerful influence *not* to do the thing being tempted, the exact opposite of the point being made.

Third, resisting something repulsive is hardly an ordeal.

Often the SOP tells us that Christ took fallen nature in order to share our temptations. A well known example:

Quote:
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)


Please note the comment that "What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors." What are these results? They are the things we see in the lives of His ancestors Rahab, Solomon, and David, just to name a few.

He accepted the workings of the law of heredity to *share* in our temptations. As we see above, a temptation is not something which is repulsive, but something which influences us powerfully to do a wrong action. If it were repulsive, it would be the opposite of a temptation, and unlike our experience.

Quote:
Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset.(S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4 (1955), page 1147)


He took fallen human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He endured "all" the temptations wherewith man is beset.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tammy Roesch] #107453
01/11/09 06:07 PM
01/11/09 06:07 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tammy Roesch
Originally Posted By: asygo
For example, when Satan showed Him the kingdoms of the world, he showed good, wholesome scenes, not the scenes of sin that attract depraved men like us. So the way Satan attacked Him came from a different angle.

I don't think so, Arnold...these don't sound like good, wholesome scenes~

Quote:
But Jesus said, "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." This was to Christ just what the Bible declares it to be--a temptation. Before His sight the tempter held the kingdoms of the world. As Satan saw them, they possessed great external grandeur. But Christ saw them in a different aspect, just as they were--earthly dominions under the power of a tyrant. He saw humanity full of woe, suffering under the oppressive power of Satan. He saw the earth defiled by hatred, revenge, malice, lust, and murder. He saw fiends in the possession of the bodies and souls of men (MS 33, 1911). {5BC 1083.5}

Teresa is right; that's what I was thinking about.

But how do we reconcile the two texts? Satan showed him those aspects that would appeal to Him by hiding all traces of evil, but Jesus saw through it and saw what most of us miss when we look at the world.

And isn't this why we fall into temptation? We look at it and think that good things will come of it, missing the fact that it will always lead to woe and misery. That's what Eve did when she considered the pros and cons of eating the fruit. Had she considered the death that would follow, would she have eaten it? I don't think so.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #107479
01/12/09 09:23 AM
01/12/09 09:23 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Thank you, Arnold and Teresa....for setting me straight here...I see what you were referring to now. Yes, I think that is a good point - as to how we reconcile the two statements...both are totally inspired...and are talking about the exact same incident.

Like you said, Arnold...Satan makes the temptation appear as alluring as possible, which is the description of the one you posted...and the one I posted is how Jesus sees through that alluring temptation, and sees it for what it is...


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tammy Roesch] #107487
01/12/09 06:58 PM
01/12/09 06:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
These explanations don't look to be dealing with the reality of temptation, as explained here.

Quote:
Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, page 1082)


Repulsive = no possibility of yielding, no powerful influence to do wrong, no ordeal.

Also this:

Quote:
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)


Christ came to share our temptations.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107493
01/12/09 09:01 PM
01/12/09 09:01 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
I don't find eating repulsive; I quite enjoy it. If I didn't eat for almost 6 weeks, I imagine I would find it even more appealing. And if I found myself with food within my reach, healthy food, I don't think it would be sin to partake. It would be alluring indeed.

However, when Jesus was in that situation, the particular circumstances made it impossible for Him to eat without also sinning.

Was there a possibility of eating? Sure. Easier for Him to turn stones into bread than for me to make a sandwich.

Did He want to eat? Sure. He was human wasn't He? Fallen or unfallen, His humanity made eating a physical necessity.

Was it a wrong action? For Him, at that time, it was. Why? Because God didn't want Him to eat at that time.

So, when faced with the choice between physically dying or being separated from His Father, what did Jesus find repulsive and decided to avoid? Being separated from His Father. But that doesn't mean that He didn't want to eat. If He didn't, it would not have been tempting. (Ordinary fallen man would naturally go for the bread, as he runs away from the Father.)

In Gethsemane, Jesus was again faced with the prospect of being separated from His Father. Was it any less repulsive to Him then? No. He even asked if there was a possibility of avoiding it. To Him, physical suffering was negligible in comparison to the prospects that lay ahead. (Ordinary fallen man would naturally avoid physical suffering, as he runs away from the Father.)

BTW, Jesus was tempted by wholesome, God-made bread. Eve was tempted by wholesome, fresh fruit. Ordinary fallen man? Snickers satisfies.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #107495
01/12/09 10:32 PM
01/12/09 10:32 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
My comment was in response to those who have expressed the idea that Christ found the temptations He faced to be repulsive. So Christ was only "tempted" to do things He found to be repulsive; that was the idea expressed.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107497
01/12/09 11:40 PM
01/12/09 11:40 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Quote:
Did Jesus ever find it difficult to do right? Every one will instantly say, No. But why? He was just as human as we are. He took flesh and blood the same as ours. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." And the kind of flesh that He was made in this world was precisely such as was in this world. "In all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren." "In all things!" It does not say, In all things but one. There is no exception. He was made in all things like as we are. He was of Himself as weak as we are, for He said, "I can of mine own self do nothing."
Why, then, being in all things like as we are, did He find it always easy to do right? Because He never trusted to Himself, but His trust was always in God alone. All His dependence was upon the grace of God. He always sought to serve God, only with the power of God. And therefore the Father dwelt in Him, and did the works of righteousness. Therefore it was always easy for Him to do right. But as He is, so are we in this world. He has left us an example, that we should follow His steps. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," as well as in Him. All power in heaven and in earth is given unto Him, and He desires that you may be strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power. "In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," and He strengthens you with might by His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be "filled with all the fullness of God."

September 1, 1896 at jones review and herald


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107501
01/13/09 04:23 AM
01/13/09 04:23 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
It can never be repeated too often, that under the reign of grace it is just as easy to do right, as under the reign of sin it is easy to do wrong. This must be so; for if there is not more power in grace than there is in sin, then there can be no salvation from sin. But there is salvation from sin; this no one who believes Christianity can deny.

Yet salvation from sin certainly depends upon there being more power in grace than there is in sin. Then, there being more power in grace than there is in sin, it cannot possibly be otherwise than that wherever the power of grace can have control, it will be just as easy to do right as without this it is easy to do wrong.

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power - the power of sin - that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fulness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all; it is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

How much more power, then, is there in grace than there is in sin? Let me think a moment. Let me ask myself a question or two. Whence comes grace? - From God, to be sure. "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Whence comes sin? - From the devil, of course. Sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Well, then, how much more power is there in grace than there is in sin? It is as plain as A B C that there is just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, as there is more power in God than there is in the devil. It is therefore also perfectly plain that the reign of grace is the reign of God; and that the reign of sin is the reign of Satan. And is it not therefore perfectly plain also, that it is just as easy to serve God by the power of God as it is to serve Satan with the power of Satan?

Where the difficulty comes in, in all this, is that so many people try to serve God with the power of Satan. But that can never be done. "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt." Men cannot gather grapes of thorns, nor figs of thistles. The tree must be made good, root and branch. It must be made new. "Ye must be born again." "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Let no one ever attempt to serve God with anything but the present, living power of God, that makes him a new creature; with nothing but the much more abundant grace that condemns sin in the flesh, and reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Then the service of God will indeed be in "newness of life;" then it will be found that his yoke is indeed "easy" and his burden "light;" then his service will be found indeed to be with "joy unspeakable and full of glory."

Did Jesus ever find it difficult to do right? Every one will instantly say, No. But why? he was just as human as we are. He took flesh and blood the same as ours. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." And the kind of flesh that he was made in this world, was precisely such as was in this world. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." "In all things"! It does not say, In all things but one. There is no exception. He was made in all things like as we are. He was of himself as weak as we are; for he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

Why, then, being in all things like as we are, did he find it always easy to do right? - Because he never trusted to himself, but his trust was always in God alone. All his dependence was upon the grace of God. He always sought to serve God, only with the power of God. And therefore the Father dwelt in him, and did the works of righteousness. Therefore it was always easy for him to do right. But as he is, so are we in this world. He has left us an example, that we should follow his steps. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," as well as in him. All power in heaven and in earth is given unto him; and he desires that you may be strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power. "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;" and he strengthens you with might by his Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be "filled with all the fulness of God."

True, Christ partook of the divine nature, and so do you if you are a child of promise, and not of the flesh; for by the promises ye are partakers of the divine nature. There was nothing given to him in this world, and he had nothing in this world, that is not freely given to you, or that you may not have.

All this is in order that you may walk in newness of life; that henceforth you may not serve sin; that you may be the servant of righteousness only; that you may be freed from sin; that sin may not have dominion over you; that you may glorify God on the earth; and that you may be like Jesus. And therefore "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.... Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." And I "beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."(September 1, 1896 at jones review and herald)


This is giving more of what was said, so there's a context for his comments.

This is a wonderful sermon, bringing out the power of grace. Jones' comments should be taken in context.

Clearly there are things that were decisions which were difficult for Christ. For example:

Quote:
40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107526
01/14/09 02:16 AM
01/14/09 02:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
MM, if temptations were repulsive to Christ, then He wasn't tempted. The following is clear about this:

Quote:
Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, page 1082)


Regarding the third temptation in the wilderness, EGW calls it the most "alluring" of the three.

Temptation does not involve doing something right, but something wrong. See the above ("influenced to do a wrong action.")

Christ had to deny Himself. He "pleased not Himself." This was difficult for Christ because He took our fallen nature and bore our sins.

Tom, when Jesus was tempted to do something inherently wrong, do you imagine Him wrestling with wanting to do it? Or, do you see Him being repulsed and rejecting it immediately?

Also, when Jesus was tempted to do something inherently right at the wrong time (i.e. heal someone) or for the wrong reason (i.e. turn stone into bread to prove to Satan He is the Messiah), do you imagine Him wrestling with wanting to do it?

And finally, what was the essence of Jesus' temptation and ordeal in Gethsemane? What was He wrestling with? And, why?

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