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Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #107280
01/08/09 12:18 AM
01/08/09 12:18 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The idea that God compromised the truth to accommodate the perverted desires of sinners is absurd.


No one has suggested this. The idea that has been suggested is that God meets people where they are, at times acceding to what they want rather than insisting on what He wants ("at times" is a very conservative way of putting this), as well as tailoring His plans to meet the reality of the hearts and mind-sets of the people He is dealing with. Such actions on God's part to not represent His ideal will. We see His ideal will expressed in Christ.

Some examples that have been mentioned in regards to this are polygamy, divorce, and the granting of a king. None of these things were God's will, yet He permitted them.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107307
01/08/09 06:52 PM
01/08/09 06:52 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: teresaq
MM: Of course, there was also the matter of Roman law which did not allow Jews to execute capital punishment. Jesus complied with Roman law. Not to comply would have constituted a sin and Satan would have won the GC. "Should He acquit the woman, He might be charged with despising the law of Moses. Should He declare her worthy of death, He could be accused to the Romans as one who was assuming authority that belonged only to them." {DA 460.5}

teresaq: the da quote above sounds so contradictory to the context that i had to post the context.
Quote:
Their pretended reverence veiled a deep-laid plot for His ruin. They had seized upon this opportunity to secure His condemnation, thinking that whatever decision He might make, they would find occasion to accuse Him. Should He acquit the woman, He might be charged with despising the law of Moses. Should He declare her worthy of death, He could be accused to the Romans as one who was assuming authority that belonged only to them. {DA 460.5}
Jesus looked for a moment upon the scene,--the trembling victim in her shame, the hard-faced dignitaries, devoid of even human pity. His spirit of stainless purity shrank from the spectacle. Well He knew for what purpose this case had been brought to Him. He read the heart, and knew the character and life history of everyone in His presence. These would-be guardians of justice had themselves led their victim into sin, that they might lay a snare for Jesus. Giving no sign that He had heard their question, He stooped, and fixing His eyes upon the ground, began to write in the dust. {DA 461.1}
.... The accusers had been defeated. Now, their robe of pretended holiness torn from them, they stood, guilty and condemned, in the presence of Infinite Purity. They trembled lest the hidden iniquity of their lives should be laid open to the multitude; and one by one, with bowed heads and downcast eyes, they stole away, leaving their victim with the pitying Saviour. {DA 461.4}
Jesus arose, and looking at the woman said, "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." {DA 461.5}
The woman had stood before Jesus, cowering with fear. His words, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone," had come to her as a death sentence. She dared not lift her eyes to the Saviour's face, but silently awaited her doom. In astonishment she saw her accusers depart speechless and confounded; then those words of hope fell upon her ear, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." Her heart was melted, and she cast herself at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out her grateful love, and with bitter tears confessing her sins. {DA 462.1}
This was to her the beginning of a new life, a life of purity and peace, devoted to the service of God. In the uplifting of this fallen soul, Jesus performed a greater miracle than in healing the most grievous physical disease; He cured the spiritual malady which is unto death everlasting. This penitent woman became one of His most steadfast followers. With self-sacrificing love and devotion she repaid His forgiving mercy. {DA 462.2}
In His act of pardoning this woman and encouraging her to live a better life, the character of Jesus shines forth in the beauty of perfect righteousness. While He does not palliate sin, nor lessen the sense of guilt, He seeks not to condemn, but to save. The world had for this erring woman only contempt and scorn; but Jesus speaks words of comfort and hope. The Sinless One pities the weakness of the sinner, and reaches to her a helping hand. While the hypocritical Pharisees denounce, Jesus bids her, "Go, and sin no more." {DA 462.3}

Teresaq, in light of the topic of this thread, do you see a contradiction in the way Jesus handled the situation in relation to the woman caught in the act of adultery and the way He handled the situation in relation to Moses and the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? If not, please explain why. Thank you.


i repeat:
the da quote above sounds so contradictory to the context that i had to post the context.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107308
01/08/09 06:55 PM
01/08/09 06:55 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: teresaq
MM: God spelled it out a long time before Samuel. Having a king would have been a blessing if he had followed in the footsteps of Moses. Here's what He instructed Moses about it:

Deuteronomy
17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that [are] about me;
17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set [him] king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: [one] from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which [is] not thy brother.
17:16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites:
17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left: to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

t: i missed the part where it was supposed to turn out to be a blessing. perhaps you could point it out. whatever might have been meant how does that change the fact that God gave the israelites what they wanted and not what was His will?

Here's the part that sounds like a blessing to me. Having such a king leading the people would be nearly identical to Moses.

17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left: to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

You asked, "Whatever might have been meant how does that change the fact that God gave the israelites what they wanted and not what was His will?" I don't see God compromising with sin in this case. Wanting a godly king to lead them was not a sin. Or, do you know of a quote that says otherwise. I know it wasn't God's ideal for them, but was having a king a sin in and of itself?


is going against Gods will a sin?

Quote:
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.


is rejecting God to reign over them a sin?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #107309
01/08/09 07:07 PM
01/08/09 07:07 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
You asked, "Whatever might have been meant how does that change the fact that God gave the Israelites what they wanted and not what was His will?" I don't see God compromising with sin in this case. Wanting a godly king to lead them was not a sin. Or, do you know of a quote that says otherwise. I know it wasn't God's ideal for them, but was having a king a sin in and of itself?


kland said it wasn't God's will. "God gave the Israelites what they wanted and not what was His will."

He didn't say anything about sin. If you want to ask a question about sin, that's fine, but why not answer the question that you were asked on the way to asking your question?

(Please pardon my butting in, MM. I didn't think you would mind.)


he was answering me, bro. smile


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #107424
01/10/09 11:31 PM
01/10/09 11:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
The idea that God compromised the truth to accommodate the perverted desires of sinners is absurd.

No one has suggested this. The idea that has been suggested is that God meets people where they are, at times acceding to what they want rather than insisting on what He wants ("at times" is a very conservative way of putting this), as well as tailoring His plans to meet the reality of the hearts and mind-sets of the people He is dealing with. Such actions on God's part to not represent His ideal will. We see His ideal will expressed in Christ.

Some examples that have been mentioned in regards to this are polygamy, divorce, and the granting of a king. None of these things were God's will, yet He permitted them.

Tom, are you suggesting polygamy was not a sin?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107426
01/10/09 11:34 PM
01/10/09 11:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: Teresaq, in light of the topic of this thread, do you see a contradiction in the way Jesus handled the situation in relation to the woman caught in the act of adultery and the way He handled the situation in relation to Moses and the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? If not, please explain why. Thank you.

t: i repeat the da quote above sounds so contradictory to the context that i had to post the context.

Would you mind answering the question anyhow?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107428
01/10/09 11:40 PM
01/10/09 11:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
is going against Gods will a sin? is rejecting God to reign over them a sin?

My question precisely. Here's the answer I submitted above:

Originally Posted By: MM
I don't see God compromising with sin in this case. Wanting a godly king to lead them was not a sin. Below is the part that sounds like a blessing to me. Having such a king leading the people would be nearly identical to Moses.

17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left: to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

What do you think?

Re: does God punish? [Re: kland] #107429
01/10/09 11:47 PM
01/10/09 11:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
M: The idea that God compromised the truth to accommodate the perverted desires of sinners is absurd. The Bible is too plainly worded to be mistaken or misunderstood.

K: Besides the example I gave you, you said, "Teresaq, thank you. Your examples prove that God permitted divorce and polygamy to accommodate their perverted desires." Would you be saying that at first you thought it was absurd whereas now you think your comment has been proven wrong?

Actually, I do not believe permitting divorce and polygamy are examples of God compromising the truth to accommodate the perverted desires of sinners. I'm not sure why I posted the above comment to Teresaq. Do you think they are examples of it?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107430
01/10/09 11:50 PM
01/10/09 11:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
In the case of Moses and the Sabbath-breaker, I believe the hunter father analogy applies. It's not simply that the individual Jews who approached Moses were uncertain how to proceed, but there was the mindset of the whole nation to consider. God had to work with an entire nation of ignorant, backward folks (who had to be told to do things like bury their dung) who had just been slaves, so God did the best He could given the circumstances He was in.

So what I'm suggesting is if you want to understand the situation with Moses and the Sabbath-breaker, go to the life of Christ, and look for episodes which deal with similar concepts, and understand God's actions on the basis of what the study of God's character as revealed in Christ revealed.

Regarding your assertion that Christ did not reveal the wrath of God, I think you're mistaken. First of all, all man can know about God was revealed by Jesus Christ. The wrath of God is certainly something that one can know about God. Regarding where Jesus Christ revealed this, above all He did so on the cross.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - Tom, I still don't know why you think God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. I can guess why, but you hate it when I guess. So just tell me plainly. Please.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107432
01/11/09 12:12 AM
01/11/09 12:12 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, are you suggesting commanding Moses to bury his dung explains why God commanded him to kill sinners?

Where in the Gospels did Jesus command someone to bury their dung or to kill a sinner?

On the cross, it was God who withdrew His protection, who manifested His wrath - not Jesus. The cross is not an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection and sinners dying as a result, nor is it an example of Jesus commanding someone to bury their dung or to kill a sinner.

You still haven't provided examples for these two attributes of God's character. Please stop insisting that Jesus demonstrated either one of these traits when He said, Your house is left unto you desolate. They still had three and half years of probation to go to get it right.

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