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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107535
01/14/09 04:03 AM
01/14/09 04:03 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
It can never be repeated too often, that under the reign of grace it is just as easy to do right, as under the reign of sin it is easy to do wrong. This must be so; for if there is not more power in grace than there is in sin, then there can be no salvation from sin. But there is salvation from sin; this no one who believes Christianity can deny.

Yet salvation from sin certainly depends upon there being more power in grace than there is in sin. Then, there being more power in grace than there is in sin, it cannot possibly be otherwise than that wherever the power of grace can have control, it will be just as easy to do right as without this it is easy to do wrong.

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power - the power of sin - that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fulness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all; it is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

How much more power, then, is there in grace than there is in sin? Let me think a moment. Let me ask myself a question or two. Whence comes grace? - From God, to be sure. "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Whence comes sin? - From the devil, of course. Sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Well, then, how much more power is there in grace than there is in sin? It is as plain as A B C that there is just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, as there is more power in God than there is in the devil. It is therefore also perfectly plain that the reign of grace is the reign of God; and that the reign of sin is the reign of Satan. And is it not therefore perfectly plain also, that it is just as easy to serve God by the power of God as it is to serve Satan with the power of Satan?

Where the difficulty comes in, in all this, is that so many people try to serve God with the power of Satan. But that can never be done. "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt." Men cannot gather grapes of thorns, nor figs of thistles. The tree must be made good, root and branch. It must be made new. "Ye must be born again." "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Let no one ever attempt to serve God with anything but the present, living power of God, that makes him a new creature; with nothing but the much more abundant grace that condemns sin in the flesh, and reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Then the service of God will indeed be in "newness of life;" then it will be found that his yoke is indeed "easy" and his burden "light;" then his service will be found indeed to be with "joy unspeakable and full of glory."

Did Jesus ever find it difficult to do right? Every one will instantly say, No. But why? he was just as human as we are. He took flesh and blood the same as ours. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." And the kind of flesh that he was made in this world, was precisely such as was in this world. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." "In all things"! It does not say, In all things but one. There is no exception. He was made in all things like as we are. He was of himself as weak as we are; for he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

Why, then, being in all things like as we are, did he find it always easy to do right? - Because he never trusted to himself, but his trust was always in God alone. All his dependence was upon the grace of God. He always sought to serve God, only with the power of God. And therefore the Father dwelt in him, and did the works of righteousness. Therefore it was always easy for him to do right. But as he is, so are we in this world. He has left us an example, that we should follow his steps. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," as well as in him. All power in heaven and in earth is given unto him; and he desires that you may be strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power. "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;" and he strengthens you with might by his Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be "filled with all the fulness of God."

True, Christ partook of the divine nature, and so do you if you are a child of promise, and not of the flesh; for by the promises ye are partakers of the divine nature. There was nothing given to him in this world, and he had nothing in this world, that is not freely given to you, or that you may not have.

All this is in order that you may walk in newness of life; that henceforth you may not serve sin; that you may be the servant of righteousness only; that you may be freed from sin; that sin may not have dominion over you; that you may glorify God on the earth; and that you may be like Jesus. And therefore "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.... Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." And I "beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."(September 1, 1896 at jones review and herald)


This is giving more of what was said, so there's a context for his comments.

This is a wonderful sermon, bringing out the power of grace. Jones' comments should be taken in context.


i didnt realize you would feel that i had taken it out of context. but thanks for showing the contrast between Jesus and us.

when Jesus was a baby how do you understand He got the victory?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107538
01/14/09 07:57 AM
01/14/09 07:57 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Quote:
when Jesus was a baby how do you understand He got the victory?

That is not a gospel truth we have to understand for our salvation, is it. We accept it like we accept the mystery of the incarnation and the mystery of his Sonship begotten in eternity past.

No-one knows, last I heard.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Colin] #107543
01/14/09 09:22 AM
01/14/09 09:22 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I didn't realize you would feel that I had taken it out of context. But thanks for showing the contrast between Jesus and us.


What? I said:

Quote:
This is giving more of what was said, so there's a context for his comments.

This is a wonderful sermon, bringing out the power of grace. Jones' comments should be taken in context.

Clearly there are things that were decisions which were difficult for Christ. For example:(quoted from Luke)


What does this have to do with your comment?

The reason I wrote this is that you took what Jones wrote as his saying that no temptation was difficult for Jesus (at least, this appeared to me to be your thought). So I pointed out that this wasn't Jones' thought at all. The point of his comments had to do with the power of grace in overcoming sin. His point wasn't contrasting Jesus to us.

Quote:
When Jesus was a baby how do you understand He got the victory?


I don't. We're told how Jesus was sinless during this time is a mystery unrevealed to mortals. I'm content to leave it at that and not speculate.

A question for you. Do you agree that Christ had "flesh of sin"?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #107544
01/14/09 09:29 AM
01/14/09 09:29 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, when Jesus was tempted to do something inherently wrong, do you imagine Him wrestling with wanting to do it? Or, do you see Him being repulsed and rejecting it immediately?


I don't know what you mean by "inherently wrong." I believe that Christ was tempted in all points as we are. I believe there were temptations which were difficult to Christ. I don't believe temptations which were repulsive to Christ were temptations, as Ellen White explained. For example, how could Christ have been powerfully influenced by something repulsive to Him? How could He possibly have yielded to such a "temptation"? Also, how would this be Christ's "sharing" in our temptations?

Quote:
Also, when Jesus was tempted to do something inherently right at the wrong time (i.e. heal someone) or for the wrong reason (i.e. turn stone into bread to prove to Satan He is the Messiah), do you imagine Him wrestling with wanting to do it?


According to Ellen White, it was an "ordeal." If Christ didn't have to struggle, how could it be characterized as an "ordeal"? Also, how could there have been any possibility that Christ would yield?

Quote:
And finally, what was the essence of Jesus' temptation and ordeal in Gethsemane? What was He wrestling with? And, why?


Christ was struggling with doing His own will vs. doing the will of God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107550
01/14/09 09:38 PM
01/14/09 09:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Tom, when Jesus was tempted to do something inherently wrong, do you imagine Him wrestling with wanting to do it? Or, do you see Him being repulsed and rejecting it immediately?

T: I don't know what you mean by "inherently wrong." I believe that Christ was tempted in all points as we are. I believe there were temptations which were difficult to Christ. I don't believe temptations which were repulsive to Christ were temptations, as Ellen White explained. For example, how could Christ have been powerfully influenced by something repulsive to Him? How could He possibly have yielded to such a "temptation"? Also, how would this be Christ's "sharing" in our temptations?

His sinful flesh craved and clamored for sinful expression, that is, it hassled Him to satisfy His appetites and passions in sinful ways, to do something "inherently wrong". This constitutes the powerful influence Ellen spoke about. Believers share in the same thing. In Christ they do not want to sin. In Christ the idea of sinning sounds repulsive to them. Nevertheless, they must, like Jesus did, labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive to resist sinning, to stay connected to the Father.

Quote:
M: Also, when Jesus was tempted to do something inherently right at the wrong time (i.e. heal someone) or for the wrong reason (i.e. turn stone into bread to prove to Satan He is the Messiah), do you imagine Him wrestling with wanting to do it?

T: According to Ellen White, it was an "ordeal." If Christ didn't have to struggle, how could it be characterized as an "ordeal"? Also, how could there have been any possibility that Christ would yield?

"Wanting to do it" and "resisting the temptation to do it" are two different things. Jesus didn't want to sin. He wanted to do His Father's will.

Quote:
M: And finally, what was the essence of Jesus' temptation and ordeal in Gethsemane? What was He wrestling with? And, why?

T: Christ was struggling with doing His own will vs. doing the will of God.

He wanted to do the will of God and He was wondering and hoping their was another way to accomplish it. He didn't want to sin or disregard God's will altogether.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107553
01/14/09 11:20 PM
01/14/09 11:20 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
My comment was in response to those who have expressed the idea that Christ found the temptations He faced to be repulsive. So Christ was only "tempted" to do things He found to be repulsive; that was the idea expressed.


i dont believe anyone here is denying the fact that Christ was strongly tempted. what my objection, and i believe the objection of certain others, is making Jesus "altogether such a one as ourselves".

we object to "Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin". we do not believe He did.

when this degenerates into a prelapse vs postlapse war, the vital issues are missed and no constructive dialogue can be had. when we get stuck on trying to prove our position, our understanding, we are not able to adequately hear/understand the possibly valid points our "opponent" may have.


Jesus was fully God-contrast/not like us-and became fully human-we are fully human. but He still didnt become just like me because i am a woman, He became a literal man.

He could not have saved us if He had become just like us.

being strongly tempted to avoid pain and suffering is a very natural, human response. being tempted to eat when hungry is a very understandable human response. being thirsty is very human. those are the points i believe the desire of ages so strongly emphasizes. so yes He found that quite desireable!

Quote:
tom: Christ was struggling with doing His own will vs. doing the will of God.


i believe arnolds point adds to this thought in that Christ was fighting selfishness vs other-centeredness. selfishness is our fallen state.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107560
01/15/09 02:39 AM
01/15/09 02:39 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Tammy wrote:

Quote:
This is such a serious point. Most of you have the wrong understanding that in order to be tempted, you must find the temptation "tempting". That couldn't be further from the truth.


How can one be strongly tempted by something which isn't tempting.

By the way, being able to shout without using caps was impressive. I guess that would be like shouting in real life without raising your voice(?) Or maybe while smiling would be a better analogy.

It's also been suggested that Christ found all temptations to be repulsive. The same question comes to mind. How can something one finds repulsive be a strong temptation?

Quote:
What my objection, and i believe the objection of certain others, is making Jesus "altogether such a one as ourselves".


This isn't postlapsarianism. Making Christ altogether such a one as ourselves is suggesting Christ had sinned, or was not divine. It's not suggesting that Christ took our sinful nature, or, synonymously, that He had sinful flesh.

Quote:
We object to "Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin". we do not believe He did.


No one here is defending this idea, right? So everyone here agrees regarding this.

Quote:
When this degenerates into a prelapse vs postlapse war, the vital issues are missed and no constructive dialogue can be had. When we get stuck on trying to prove our position, our understanding, we are not able to adequately hear/understand the possibly valid points our "opponent" may have.


It's certainly possible that this can happen, but it's not necessary. It's a bit frustrating for me to be making the same points repeatedly and not having them acknowledged or discussed. I believe I've been fair in listening to what other's are saying. I try not to put a filter on that prevents me from hearing any "truth" from what someone is saying just because I disagree with some idea. For example, in our discussion here, I think Arnold has had some interesting ideas, for example, in regards to Christ's being tempted to follow self instead of God (I can't remember his exact wording, but I think I've accurately represented his idea).

Quote:
Jesus was fully God-contrast/not like us-and became fully human-we are fully human. but He still didn't become just like me because I am a woman, He became a literal man.


It seems to me there are a lot of red herring type arguments in the thread, as opposed to dealing with actual issues. I agree with your observation that this can happen because of not listening to what another is saying. In regards to this particular point, no one is suggesting that Jesus became "just like me."

Quote:
He could not have saved us if He had become just like us.


Of course not. For one thing, in this case He would not have been divine, but merely human.

Quote:
Being strongly tempted to avoid pain and suffering is a very natural, human response. Being tempted to eat when hungry is a very understandable human response. Being thirsty is very human. Those are the points I believe the Desire of Ages so strongly emphasizes. So yes He found that quite desireable!


Well, I'm glad to see you agree with me that not all of Christ's temptations were repulsive. And also, it appears, that you agree with me that Christ's temptations were "tempting."

Regarding the idea that these were the points of the Desire of Ages, I think this is missing much of what she said. I'll give three examples:

Quote:
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)


If all that were involved here were things like hunger and avoiding pain, I don't see how this makes any sense. Why emphasize Christ's heredity? In particular, the underlined sentence makes no sense. What were the results shown in the history of Christ's earthly ancestors? They are things like rape, incest, murder, adultery; sins of every type. No one would read this underlined sentence to mean "hunger" or "pain avoidance." It's inconceivable that this is what Ellen White had in mind.

Quote:
Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4, page 1147)


Again, I don't see how one could interpret this to mean she had things like hunger and pain avoidance in mind. How do these things represent human nature "degraded and defiled by sin."?

Quote:
Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. (DA 311, 312)


S. N. Haskell read this aloud, then commented:

Quote:
This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness."


He was working with Ellen White at the time to combat the Holy Flesh movement, which argued that Christ took the nature of Adam before the fall. This statement was published in the Review and Herald.

This shows that Ellen White was understood as teaching that Christ came in fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations, and that Ellen White knew that she was perceived in such a fashion. It's hard to comprehend how she would let this slide if it were false, especially considering that she wrote the Baker letter. If she would correct an obscure minister no one knew, it's hard to fathom how she would let the top workers of the church, those most visible, make public errors of such magnitude if they were wrong and she really didn't believe that Christ took fallen humanity with its hereditary inclinations.

Quote:
Tom: Christ was struggling with doing His own will vs. doing the will of God.

teresaq:I believe Arnold's point adds to this thought in that Christ was fighting selfishness vs other-centeredness. selfishness is our fallen state.


I don't understand what you're saying here.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107561
01/15/09 02:47 AM
01/15/09 02:47 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
His sinful flesh craved and clamored for sinful expression, that is, it hassled Him to satisfy His appetites and passions in sinful ways, to do something "inherently wrong". This constitutes the powerful influence Ellen spoke about. Believers share in the same thing. In Christ they do not want to sin. In Christ the idea of sinning sounds repulsive to them. Nevertheless, they must, like Jesus did, labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive to resist sinning, to stay connected to the Father.


I agree with this. Also I think this is well put. It is the idea of sinner that was repulsive to Christ, but Christ had actual temptations to deal with, which were not repulsive, precisely for the reasons your brought out.

Quote:
T: Christ was struggling with doing His own will vs. doing the will of God.

M:He wanted to do the will of God and He was wondering and hoping their was another way to accomplish it. He didn't want to sin or disregard God's will altogether.


Personally I think I would stay away from saying things like Christ "wanted" to or "didn't want" to do things. This seems to me vague and confusing. One could argue that if one doesn't want to do something, one isn't tempted. One could also argue that a sanctified person won't want to do wrong, which is of course true. So personally I would stay away from this construction. I like the way you put things in the first paragraph above.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #107562
01/15/09 04:20 AM
01/15/09 04:20 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Tammy wrote:

Quote:
This is such a serious point. Most of you have the wrong understanding that in order to be tempted, you must find the temptation "tempting". That couldn't be further from the truth.


How can one be strongly tempted by something which isn't tempting.

By the way, being able to shout without using caps was impressive. I guess that would be like shouting in real life without raising your voice(?) Or maybe while smiling would be a better analogy.

It's also been suggested that Christ found all temptations to be repulsive. The same question comes to mind. How can something one finds repulsive be a strong temptation?

Quote:
What my objection, and i believe the objection of certain others, is making Jesus "altogether such a one as ourselves".


This isn't postlapsarianism. Making Christ altogether such a one as ourselves is suggesting Christ had sinned, or was not divine. It's not suggesting that Christ took our sinful nature, or, synonymously, that He had sinful flesh.

Quote:
We object to "Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin". we do not believe He did.


No one here is defending this idea, right? So everyone here agrees regarding this.

Quote:
When this degenerates into a prelapse vs postlapse war, the vital issues are missed and no constructive dialogue can be had. When we get stuck on trying to prove our position, our understanding, we are not able to adequately hear/understand the possibly valid points our "opponent" may have.


It's certainly possible that this can happen, but it's not necessary. It's a bit frustrating for me to be making the same points repeatedly and not having them acknowledged or discussed. I believe I've been fair in listening to what other's are saying. I try not to put a filter on that prevents me from hearing any "truth" from what someone is saying just because I disagree with some idea. For example, in our discussion here, I think Arnold has had some interesting ideas, for example, in regards to Christ's being tempted to follow self instead of God (I can't remember his exact wording, but I think I've accurately represented his idea).

Quote:
Jesus was fully God-contrast/not like us-and became fully human-we are fully human. but He still didn't become just like me because I am a woman, He became a literal man.


It seems to me there are a lot of red herring type arguments in the thread, as opposed to dealing with actual issues. I agree with your observation that this can happen because of not listening to what another is saying. In regards to this particular point, no one is suggesting that Jesus became "just like me."

Quote:
He could not have saved us if He had become just like us.


Of course not. For one thing, in this case He would not have been divine, but merely human.

Quote:
Being strongly tempted to avoid pain and suffering is a very natural, human response. Being tempted to eat when hungry is a very understandable human response. Being thirsty is very human. Those are the points I believe the Desire of Ages so strongly emphasizes. So yes He found that quite desireable!


Well, I'm glad to see you agree with me that not all of Christ's temptations were repulsive. And also, it appears, that you agree with me that Christ's temptations were "tempting."

Regarding the idea that these were the points of the Desire of Ages, I think this is missing much of what she said. I'll give three examples:

Quote:
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)


If all that were involved here were things like hunger and avoiding pain, I don't see how this makes any sense. Why emphasize Christ's heredity? In particular, the underlined sentence makes no sense. What were the results shown in the history of Christ's earthly ancestors? They are things like rape, incest, murder, adultery; sins of every type. No one would read this underlined sentence to mean "hunger" or "pain avoidance." It's inconceivable that this is what Ellen White had in mind.

Quote:
Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4, page 1147)


Again, I don't see how one could interpret this to mean she had things like hunger and pain avoidance in mind. How do these things represent human nature "degraded and defiled by sin."?

Quote:
Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. (DA 311, 312)


S. N. Haskell read this aloud, then commented:

Quote:
This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness."


He was working with Ellen White at the time to combat the Holy Flesh movement, which argued that Christ took the nature of Adam before the fall. This statement was published in the Review and Herald.

This shows that Ellen White was understood as teaching that Christ came in fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations, and that Ellen White knew that she was perceived in such a fashion. It's hard to comprehend how she would let this slide if it were false, especially considering that she wrote the Baker letter. If she would correct an obscure minister no one knew, it's hard to fathom how she would let the top workers of the church, those most visible, make public errors of such magnitude if they were wrong and she really didn't believe that Christ took fallen humanity with its hereditary inclinations.

Quote:
Tom: Christ was struggling with doing His own will vs. doing the will of God.

teresaq:I believe Arnold's point adds to this thought in that Christ was fighting selfishness vs other-centeredness. selfishness is our fallen state.


I don't understand what you're saying here.


my post seems to be generally misunderstood, but not completely so ill just drop it and leave the misunderstanding be. except that i wasnt yelling. i just wanted it to stand it out. did i make it too large? yes, but i was busy and didnt think to get back and fix it.

no beneficial dialogue here. just needs to win.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #107563
01/15/09 04:30 AM
01/15/09 04:30 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Quote:
mm: His sinful flesh craved and clamored for sinful expression, that is, it hassled Him to satisfy His appetites and passions in sinful ways, to do something "inherently wrong". This constitutes the powerful influence Ellen spoke about. Believers share in the same thing. In Christ they do not want to sin. In Christ the idea of sinning sounds repulsive to them. Nevertheless, they must, like Jesus did, labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive to resist sinning, to stay connected to the Father.


your picture of Jesus is not beneficial to me since we live up to the picture we have in our mind. it is a miserable existence of constantly resisting sin. our eyes constantly on self. self, self, self.

but the picture of Jesus singing hymns as He went about His work, constantly looking to benefit His fellowman, constantly emptying Himself to let only the Father show, etc.

yes, that will work.

by beholding we become.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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