Tom, I'm not sure if we agree or disagree on the specifics of this issue. On the one hand, I disagree that God would stand by and let person A die unsaved because no one prayed for his healing. But on the other hand, I agree with the sample prayer you recommended at the end of your post.

Mark, thanks for sharing.

If the sick person we pray for dies does that mean his sins are unforgiven, and that he is unsaved?

I dont know if you are trying to discuss predestination or what... but this is my concept of prayer... the whole idea is to bring us over to God's will instead of our own.It isnt to change God's mind.

"Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments.

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.
This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah." Christ's Object Lessons, The Wedding Garment

Think about this... Jesus said that the word you hear coming from Him wasnt from Him but it was from the Father. He gave Himself over entirely to do God's will. Jesus prayed. But He didnt change God's mind... God gave Him His will, His mind. It wasn't as if Jesus changed God's mind.

I used to wonder about prayer. It bothered me because sometimes it would seem as if I was begging God to help someone or whatever... as if I had to persuade God to be as kind as I was. Which is stupid, it's not as if we are wanting to help someone and then we have to coax God to be just as merciful towards someone else as we are. God puts those desires into our hearts through the Holy Spirit in the first place.

I think we have to be careful about thinking that people in the Bible actually "changed God's mind". You know ... it says in one Bible verse that "God repented" but then in another it says "Who is God, that He should repent, He isnt as a man that he should repent". So we have to understand Bible language.


"Prayer is not to work any change in God; it is to bring us into harmony with God. When we make request of Him, He may see that it is necessary for us to search our hearts and repent of sin. Therefore He takes us through test and trial, He brings us through humiliation, that we may see what hinders the working of His Holy Spirit through us.

There are conditions to the fulfillment of God's promises, and prayer can never take the place of duty. "If ye love Me," Christ says, "Keep My commandments." "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:15, 21. Those who bring their petitions to God, claiming His promise while they do not comply with the conditions, insult Jehovah. They bring the name of Christ as their authority for the fulfillment of the promise, but they do not those things that would show faith in Christ and love for Him.

Many are forfeiting the condition of acceptance with the Father. We need to examine closely the deed of trust wherewith we approach God. If we are disobedient, we bring to the Lord a note to be cashed when we have not fulfilled the conditions that would make it payable to us. We present to God His promises, and ask Him to fulfill them, when by so doing He would dishonor His own name." Christs Object Lessons, Asking to Give


Mark 11:24. "Whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13. And the beloved John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, speaks with great plainness and assurance: "If we ask anything according to His will, He heareth us: and if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him." 1 John 5:14, 15. Christs Object Lessons, Asking to Give

"Christ was continually receiving from the Father that He might communicate to us. "The word which ye hear," He said, "is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me." John 14:24. "The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister." Matt. 20:28. Not for Himself, but for others, He lived and thought and prayed. From hours spent with God He came forth morning by morning, to bring the light of heaven to men. Daily He received a fresh baptism of the Holy Spirit. In the early hours of the new day the Lord awakened Him from His slumbers, and His soul and His lips were anointed with grace, that He might impart to others. His words were given Him fresh from the heavenly courts, words that He might speak in season to the weary and oppressed. "The Lord God hath given Me," He said, "the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: He wakeneth morning by morning, He wakeneth Mine ear to hear as the learned." Isa. 50:4." Christs Object Lessons, Asking to Give


"Christ's lessons in regard to prayer should be carefully considered. There is a divine science in prayer, and His illustration brings to view principles that all need to understand. He shows what is the true spirit of prayer, He teaches the necessity of perseverance in presenting our requests to God, and assures us of His willingness to hear and answer prayer.

Our prayers are not to be a selfish asking, merely for our own benefit. We are to ask that we may give. The principle of Christ's life must be the principle of our lives. "For their sakes," He said, speaking of His disciples, "I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified." John 17:19. The same devotion, the same self-sacrifice, the same subjection to the claims of the word of God, that were manifest in Christ, must be seen in His servants. Our mission to the world is not to serve or please ourselves; we are to glorify God by co-operating with Him to save sinners." Christs Object Lessons, Asking to Give

One more thought, it just bothers me this idea about God that some people have that seems to say "well we have to persuade God to be compassionate towards us by prayer". It's like the idea lots of Christians have about God verses Jesus.

They view God as the old Testament legalistic God that is just waiting to punish us and then along comes Jesus, the "compassionate one" who dies on the cross in order to persuade God to please be kind to us who have come to Jesus for refuge. But Jesus said when you see Him you see the Father. I think this false picture about Jesus and God is the same one about prayer.


Steps to Christ, page 13, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: God's Love for Man
"But this great sacrifice was not made in order to create in the Father's heart a love for man, not to make Him willing to save. No, no! "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. The Father loves us, not because of the great propitiation, but He provided the propitiation because He loves us. Christ was the medium through which He could pour out His infinite love upon a fallen world. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. God suffered with His Son. In the agony of Gethsemane, the death of Calvary, the heart of Infinite Love paid the price of our redemption.

Jesus said, "Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again." John 10:17. That is, "My Father has so loved you that He even loves Me more for giving My life to redeem you. In becoming your Substitute and Surety, by surrendering My life, by taking your liabilities, your transgressions, I am endeared to My Father; for by My sacrifice, God can be just, and yet the Justifier of him who believeth in Jesus."

...I probably am not even on the same subject as you guys are... but I just wanted to say that and add my one and a half cents worth.

Patriarchs and Prophets, page 139,140
Chapter Title: Abraham in Canaan
"Two of the heavenly messengers departed, leaving Abraham alone with Him whom he now knew to be the Son of God. And the man of faith pleaded for the inhabitants of Sodom. Once he had saved them by his sword, now he endeavored to save them by prayer. Lot and his household were still dwellers there; and the unselfish love that prompted Abraham to their rescue from the Elamites, now sought to save them, if it were God's will, from the storm of divine judgment.... The spirit of Abraham was the spirit of Christ. The Son of God is Himself the great Intercessor in the sinner's behalf."

..It wasnt as if Abraham had to persuade God to be compassionate... rather, it was the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God in Him that was coming up to the will of God, which was compassion.

(or something like that

Claudia

Also, what about unfulfilled prophecy? Can our prayers alter the future? That is, can they change the outcome as predicted in the Bible? If we pray properly, for example, can we prevent the USA from leading the rest of the world in legislating and enforcing Sunday Laws?

The Biblical statements that say that God is not like a man that He should repent indicate that God is trustworth; i.e. he's not fickle like man.

The testimony of inspiration is that God's actions may be influence by our prayers.